Rough Play

[Divine Angel]

I guess this comes under training...

My 8 week old pup got a bit hyper this morning and the play was far too rough. As a result, I have scratches from her very sharp little teeth on my hands, arms and feet.

What happened was, she woke up at about 5.30am to go out and wanted to play after that. I took my doona out to the lounge room where I could keep an eye on her while she played and chewed. About an hour later, the play got rough. She started jumping on my face, to which I put my arms up in defence (I didn't want her to rip my earrings out) but she chewed my hands instead. I had no choice but to push her away, which of course she thought was a great game. Soon, I was in tears because she had clamped down on my hand and my index finger on my right hand went numb. I had no defence, but to protect my ears and face, otherwise I would have given her a little smack on the nose. "NO" wasn't being heard.

How do I handle this situation should it arise again? My hands and arms are protecting my face and ears, how do I get her to stop?

[Steve]

Dont play with this puppy like this. She's only 8 weeks old and if you continue you dont stand a chance when she is 55 kg .

Forget about defending yourself , get up and out of her way and GROWL at her and put her out. What works well with this breed is an empty can of coke or similar with stones in the bottom of it Masking tape over the end . When she's naughty shake it and it will let her know she's out of line.

[Staffyluv]

I am no trainer, but there is no way I would act defensively in front of my dog (stafford). From what I have read on this site and in my opinion that would let the animal think it is above you in the pack order. You could tell the pup no and walk away if play escalates to this again.

There are a lot of people here that can give you advice on what to do if this happens again.

Jodie

[Divine Angel]

Thanks Steve and Jodie.

I don't think she meant to hurt me or show she was leader, she simply got too carried away and I was lying down, so it wasn't easy for me to move. Also, I was very tired.

I didn't mention that this happened yesterday afternoon. She got carried away and started chewing hands and feet. I was sitting down, so I told her "NO!" in my firmest voice, and said that was enough, it was too rough (who knows? maybe she does understnad human!) and walked away. She calmed down very quickly.

I will not let it happen again. As soon as I see it starting, I will stop her, and move position. Thanks for the suggestion of the empty Coke can- sounds like a good idea. When she's naughty now, I clap my hands loudly and she stops immediately, so I think that coke can will work well also.

ATM she has calmed down a lot. No more chewing hands and feet. She's learning very fast about what's acceptable and what's not. She's even sitting at the back door instead of scratching at it and pulling it apart, like she was doing 24 hours ago.

I'm so amazed at the intelligence of her. I thought my other dog, Patchie, was smart. Got nothing on Jas!

[tommy15]

well i dunno what breed your dog is, and im not sure its relevant, but my dog does a similar thing.

He seems to try and round people up when his real excited, or if its just me he'll try to control what i do and where i go by barking at me and nipping at me. I dunno just the look on his face and his out of character behaviour, it really does give me the impression that a switch has gone off in his head and his acting on some kind of instinct. Many people have commented that they think he looks part red kelpie.

anyways just throwing that idea into the mix ;)

[gusgem]

Go to a puppy preschool, they will answer all questions like this, well mine has done so far, and I have only been one week.

In this situation I would have got up off the lounge, walked away and ignored her. baby puppies don't really understand the word no! If this didn't work, I would have picked her up and taken her outside and left her there till she settled down, but then again I read your last post about her hating being outside, so maybe put her in a crate or in the laundry for some time out.

[MonElite]

I don't think she meant ....... to show she was leader,

She did. She is trying to see what happends if she does it. If nothing happends she will continue to do this.

Imagine if it was a grow up dog - how would you interpret this? And what would happened if a grown up dog got carried away like that.

nipping, biting, chewing hands, barking at you when you are lets say on the phone and not paying attention, are all signs of a dog trying to be the boss or at the least to get your attention or testing the waters with you.

All of the biting, niping and chewing hands is unacceptable.

Growl at the puppy, walk away from it, put it outside, ignore it, scream in pain when it bites you will show the pupp that you dont want this done to yourself.

If the puppy wants to chew something give ti something that it can chew.

Dont give it your old socks or shoes - it will than take your new ones as it will not know the difference.

I have made a comment before in another threat that I would take the scruff of the neck and gently shake the skin (not the whole dog) while I growled at the pupp (Just like a mother would do to a puppy) - it has coused some confusion, so get someone in puppy school to show you what I am talking about.

[Steve]

No she's a maremma She wasnt trying to show she was leader at all.

[MonElite]

I know nothing about maremmas - Arent maremmas pack animals? This is the first time I have heard that breed of a dog has something to do with, or not to do with signs of domination.

Fill me please.

Another question - what about if a dog is a maremma cross?

Edited November 17, 2004 by myszka

[MonElite]

I have read the brief description on this site http://www.all-animals.com/maremma/

The temperament of this dog sounds to me simmilar to a Caucasian Ovcharka or a Central Asian Sheepdog. If it is in any way simmilar it confirms what I have said in my previous post.

I personally know quite a few of caucasian sheepdogs and even more of Central Asians- certainly not a dog for anyone, and yes it can dominate its owner to the degree that can be beyond any control. They will never be a "slave" to an owner they are a slave to themselves and the land and a flock they protect, but if not guided corectly they will protect the land and the flock also from the owner.

Yes they are a specific breed but also a dog and a pack animal, therefore capable of domination.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Divine Angel]

Jasmine is 100% pure Maremma.

[MonElite]

Devine Angel - I have seen her photos - gorgeous! I dont question the fact if she is purebreed or not, I question the statement about maremmas not being able to show domination. So it they are supposedly not showing domination what happeneds with crosses?

BTW my friend that had a caucasian ovcharka did a CD with it. Also I know of a couple of central asian sheepdogs with CD. Lots of very specific training but can be done.

Never progressed to CDX as those dogs would not fetch ;)

If maremmas are anything like those 2 breeds that I have mentioned your typical training methods will not work. What a shame my friend with caucasian doesnt speak English I would put you in touch she is the one with a CD and an absolute mountain of knowledge. But if you have some curly specific question I can try to translate.

[Vehs]

lol I think Steves comment should be taken tongue in cheek -- she breeds maremmas and may be a little bias -?

[tommy15]

Arent maremmas pack animals?

hahaha yes myszka they are pack animals ;)

what i meant with the breed thing is my bloke seems to do what he does out of instinct, and if he does infact have some kelpie in his bloodlines somewere, kelpies are\were bred and used as cattle dogs and so thats where he might get it from.

[Steve]

Yes Im biased but I also own a lot of Maremma and I have done for a long time Ive got them in working situations and mooching around the house as pets. I find it pretty amazing that my experience with the breed and all of the years of hard yakka Ive put into owning and knowing them can be discounted by a comment about taking what I say as tongue in cheek because I own them and Im there fore biased, :

I own boxers and beagles and Corgis and Im biased with them also but if you described the same situation with any of them I would agree it was a dominance thing .

When a Maremma thinks they are the dominant dog they act exactly the opposite and they behave submissively .

This isnt just my say so and Ive a great book here which tells all about Maremmas , their body language and their behaviours written by a guy who spent his life obseving them in a group and with their families.

They are not pack animals [the same way beagles are pack animals] and they have been bred to work singly with their herd not with other dogs at all. When they are together in a pack the dominant dog doesnt act the same way as other dominant dogs of other breeds do.

I could take all night to tell you examples of this but its my opinion that the pup was not showing any signs of dominance or aggression any more than it would have been if it had treated one of its herd this way.

The site that you posted is of no real benefit to devine angel as she has a pet and just as when I first got involved with the breed conflicting stories and warnings and advice will abound This is why I owned them and lived with them in both working and pet situations for a long time before I ever bred them I wanted to be sure of what I knew so I could pass on the info to anyone buying them for working dogs or pets.I devoted a hell of a lot of my life to learning about them

Im not biased toward the breed to a point where I dont know their faults or their weaknesses or the management issues and in my opinion based on the fact that this is a purebred Maremma and only a baby one that this isnt a show of dominance. The reason I own purebred Maremma is so I can have this degree of predictibility and know what to expect from them and how to manage the breed .

You may consider me biased but considering my experience and face to face hands on with the breed on a constant daily basis for the past 15 or so years Id say Im as much an expert on this as anyone . However, whether you want to label it dominance and argue with me on pack behavour isnt really the issue .It was unacceptable and regardless of whether it was showing dominance or not it needs to be handled.

[Vehs]

Sorry Steve -- I honestly thought your comment was meant in jest, like when I asked how my friends Setter coped with burrs, twigs in her feathering etc and he replied 'Bonnie is a setter she doesn't get dirty'

(but I know she does because I washed her earlier this week )

I think many of us here respect your opinion on many issues, I know I pay particular attention when it comes to diet, sorry if I offended you.

[Steve]

Vehs Thats O.K I admit it did bend my nose a little but I can see that if you dont know the breed you will assume that they are just like any other dogs and they really arent. Im really passionate about these guys and my aim is to try to help DA to understand what she has in the hope that it will make for both her and her dog to live together understanding each other.

Too many of them end up dumped because people didnt understand before they got them what to expect .

[Divine Angel]

Thanks for all your help, Steve, it is truly appreciated.

I'm beginning to see that maremma's aren't like 'ordinary' dogs and that what I have learned from watching endless repeats of Dr Harry has to be adjusted a little for my Jasmine.

Having said that- Jasmine is still inclined to get a little hyper in play mode. Now I take full control of the situation. If I am lying on the lounge and she starts getting too rough, I immediately sit up and say NO. (she is quite good at leaning what NO means!) Usually I am sitting on the floor when she plays rough, so I say, ENOUGH! and get up and move somewhere else.

People kept telling me how smart Maremmas were, I just didn't realise how freakin smart they were!!!

As for her other training, "come" is getting better, "sit" works the best and "no" is usually a good one also. Next I will try with "stay", as she is inclined to bolt out the front door when opened. "Heel" doesn't seem to be a problem, she would prefer to walk next to me than in front of me anyway.

Steve, you were so right about that steep learning curve!

[MonElite]

Steve - at least we agree on one point that what Jasmine was doing was unacceptable.

The website that I pasted - it wasnt a recomendation to DA - it was a first site that I picked in Google when I searched to find anything about maremmas.

And the description of the temperament straight away was amasingly simmilar to that of a caucasian or a centralasian sheepdogs (BTW do you know those 2 breeds?) They too were bred to work alone, to be responcible for the land and a flock and to make their own decisions.

They are absolutly fantastic dogs, and as I said not for everyone, as they cant be treated like a lab, boxer, GSD etc. So DA - steep learning curve.

As I like to question things (best way to learn) Steve - I dont understand - what do you mean when you say that they show dominance by submision??? Sorry but how can a dog putting ears back, looking away and turning over to show the belly can be interpreted as a dominant? I must be missing something......... I believe that regardless of a breed the dog language is the same, might have slight differences but in general is the same.

How than a maremma is going to get on with any other breed if they speak an opposite language????

I am in a way passionate about those 2 breeds as they look like bears and overly cute as pupps and unfortunatelly get purchased by people that cant handle them and they often gat blamed for suddenly turning on their owners and end up PTS for agression. Where all it was required was some knowledge, patience and persistance - majority of people dont have enought of all 3.

DA - I'm sure you will do wonders with her - learn as much as you can and patience and persistance and you will have a wonderfull friend.

Tommy - regardles of a breed - nipping is not acceptable, of course some breeds will be more prone to nip than others but still no nipping is the way to go.

[Divine Angel]

I just want to make clear that I bought Jasmine, knowing full well what I was in for and what she would be like as an adult. I knew their temperament and I knew their problems.

I didn't just buy her cos she was cute. I met the breeder and Jas' parents 6 months before Jas was born.

This wasn't a spur of the moment decision.

And really, there are no problems. I knew rough play is unacceptable but didn't know how to deal with it. I'm grateful that I have a forum where I can ask questions because other people have gone through the same thing and they can help me.