E Collar Question

[Erny]

I've not long come in and having taken my boy out for a run, am now sitting here and catching up with the discussion in this thread.

Apart from what I wrote last night, there is something I believe I have noticed in the use of the R- method of use with the e-collar. And that is that it seems to produce a classical conditioned response to the command given. I may be incorrect there (K9 Force?), but watching the dogs' reactions that seems to me to be what it looks like, at least, once the dog has learnt what the stim is about and how to control it. The response is so smooth, immediate and enthusiastic there is no indication of avoidance (eg. no dropping of the ears etc.). The dog doesn't give any indication of having done something wrong (because he/she hasn't and the stim hasn't been used to indicate that). In fact I have watched them and seen they almost "beat their chests" (so to speak) with the absolute confidence they have in being able to do the right thing. As I alluded (or should that be eluded .... I always get those two words mixed up) to earlier, R- use with low stim encourages the dog to do right whereas P+ use (high or low stim) has told the dog its done wrong. And I also tend to find (once the initial teaching phase of what the stim is about) that even when the dog is in a higher drive than it would be in the absence of distractions, the lower stim has the desired effect and enhances the dog's mental balance (ie clear thinking).

Edited May 15, 2009 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

I understand what you're saying Erny. I just find it hard to get my head around the dog feeling the stim without prior opportunity to have done the right thing. Do you have any links to video of a dogs first session using this method?

[superminty]

I just typed a long reply and my computer shut down

Superminty, using the e collar as P+ technically doesn't mean the level is such that it is like a 'normal' correction. I find the same things you do in my e collar training- dog knows how to turn the stim off, dog figures it out on their own (helped to start with of course)- the only difference is that i give a command first and then use stim if needed, whereas K9 and others stim first then give the command.

I agree with all that you said about the similarity to shaping but with added pressure and the dog not being afraid to make a mistake etc. I just think the same can be done while also giving the dog an opportunity to respond to a known command, before using the stim.

Lol, I know how you feel re: long replies and gremlins - I've lerant to always write up my replies in Word and cut and paste them in - unreliable internet's a pain.

Just wondering, how do you speed up compliance? Do you just hit the stim sooner and sooner after giving the command? I've found using the stim first gets super fast compliance in very few repetitions - 1 or 2 in my case (once the dog worked out how to control the stim). I'm stimming (is that a word?) 1/2 - 1 second before the command. I just wonder how long it takes using a P+ stim to get blindingly fast responses i.e. assuming at first you give the dog a chance to comply, how long before you apply a stim?

[Erny]

I know there are some vids around - one is of finding the dog's working level, the other that's on my mind though relates to a dog who has had the basic on-lead training already done though. I'm sure there are others and if I can remember and then find them I'll hook them up here.

The stim is so low it is merely something that is annoying and all you're doing is showing the dog how to remove the annoyance. I can tell you that I do like the results I've seen as it comes in the form of a dog happily and enthusiastically completing its command task with the full-on exuberance and immediacy of a dog in drive.

Do you have any footage (or links to footage) of dogs where the stim is used as a punishment?

I do understand your reluctance though Cosmolo as I too, back in considerably earlier days, felt a bit the same. I still don't like R- methods such as ear pinches, but with the e-collar, the stimulation is not about pain but merely an annoying sensation. Couple that with the results I have seen using the tool as I and K9 Force (and Superminty ) do, I'm confident the method works well. And as K9 Force has mentioned, the R- low stim use of the e-collar can be used with success even in fearful dogs.

Have you used the e-collar in your method with a fearful dog? (Not challenging .... just interested )

Edited May 15, 2009 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

Depends a little on the dog but we usually start around 2 seconds- this may change as the dog progresses if needed. I haven't found an issue getting super quick responses because the dogs are trying to beat the stim. We release and reward quicker for quicker responses as well.

[Cosmolo]

Yes we have Erny- including one of our own who has extreme fear issues. I will try to find some vids of Bart- i have looked before with no success but will look again! I wish i had videoed the session we went to with him.

[Cosmolo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64IXBdravjI This isn't an e collar one But i had to post! He trains all his dogs using e collars and prey drive and i think this vid refutes that lowering of drive definitely/ always occurs when using the stim after the command. I am still looking for more.

[Cosmolo]

Can only find bitework videos with Bart.

[Steve K9Pro]

Sm: Wouldn't using the collar as P+ only be just like using any other correction, except that you can use it in more situations (i.e. long distances)? Whereas using it as R- teaches the dog to figure it out on their own? I'm interested in feedback from those that think otherwise or have a different perspective. Or from anyone who can explain it better than I can

K9: Yep thats correct, the training can be self discovery fo0r the dog t achieve success through guided movements when the stim is applied.

Sm: My e-collar trained (well, training) dog is never afraid to make a mistake with the collar on - he has the power to turn the stim off - and the responses I get from him are almost identical to the way he responds to shaping.

K9: With the stim being switched on first, then you have the diog attention, then you give a command & help the dog shape the movment & then the stim turns off. This means the dog completing the correct movement is marked at the time of success, just like in clicker training.

I know of some trainers whom have take the next step & press the collar stim, & at the removal supply a food treat, to replicxate their prevous clicker training.

[Staranais]

I understand what you're saying Erny. I just find it hard to get my head around the dog feeling the stim without prior opportunity to have done the right thing. Do you have any links to video of a dogs first session using this method?

I only know a little about e-collars, have only used them a few times, so this might not be true. But it sounds like you think that it's unfair to stim the dog before giving him a chance to comply with the command. I think that's a fair enough opinion, if the stim was a negative experience to the dog. But I don't think that this is necessarily the case.

If you use the stim on a barely perceptible setting, and use rewards as well as using the e-collar, then the stim should be a positive experience for the dog. The stim becomes a conditioned signal that the dog has just gained the opportunity to comply with the coming command and earn a reward. If anything, the dog should become excited and focused when it feels the stim start, as the stim simply means: "heads up! here's a chance to earn something cool!"

So IMO in that case it isn't at all unfair or unkind to stim before the command, as the stim isn't a negative experience for the dog, in fact is it positive, as it signals the availability of earning reinforcement.

Just my 2 cents, from what I understand.

Edited May 17, 2009 by Staranais

[Steve K9Pro]

I've not long come in and having taken my boy out for a run, am now sitting here and catching up with the discussion in this thread.

Apart from what I wrote last night, there is something I believe I have noticed in the use of the R- method of use with the e-collar. And that is that it seems to produce a classical conditioned response to the command given. I may be incorrect there (K9 Force?), but watching the dogs' reactions that seems to me to be what it looks like, at least, once the dog has learnt what the stim is about and how to control it. The response is so smooth, immediate and enthusiastic there is no indication of avoidance (eg. no dropping of the ears etc.). The dog doesn't give any indication of having done something wrong (because he/she hasn't and the stim hasn't been used to indicate that). In fact I have watched them and seen they almost "beat their chests" (so to speak) with the absolute confidence they have in being able to do the right thing. As I alluded (or should that be eluded .... I always get those two words mixed up) to earlier, R- use with low stim encourages the dog to do right whereas P+ use (high or low stim) has told the dog its done wrong. And I also tend to find (once the initial teaching phase of what the stim is about) that even when the dog is in a higher drive than it would be in the absence of distractions, the lower stim has the desired effect and enhances the dog's mental balance (ie clear thinking).

K9: Agree 100% Erny, the dogs gain confidence as there is the absence of correction in the first step. When any type of avoidance training is used, command - correction etc, the dog seems to be always second guessing as to whether the correction is looming.

I have come to the conclusion this is because when the dog is asked to come, & it refuses the first time, it recieves a correction. The next time it is called to come, it looks at another dog (for example) & is corrected. The next time the dog wants to go sniff something interesting, is called to come & then is corrected again.

The correction is not being paired ideally with not coming as much as it is being applied to several different distractions.

Of course avoidance training works & has for years, but I believe that whe we use the stim first, it highlights the right move not the wrong move. The stim can be applied throigh several distractions but turned off only when the right resppnse has been offered (usually with giudance from the handler).

[Steve K9Pro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64IXBdravjI This isn't an e collar one But i had to post! He trains all his dogs using e collars and prey drive and i think this vid refutes that lowering of drive definitely/ always occurs when using the stim after the command. I am still looking for more.

K9: Nice video but this work is trained in prey drive, have trained many dogs to this level & not needed an e collar.

Note the prey item under his left arm, that is what the dog is heeling for, not in avoidance of an e collar stim (in this video).

You will see at the 12 second mark Bart adjusts the tug to gain slightly higher focus, he didnt tap on the e collar (that the dog isnt wearing btw).

The work is very good, there is no getting away from that, a good example of training in drive not e collar training.

As for refuting whether the stim after the command reduces drive, I would just like to remind you that you asked the questions & I am answering them from my experience.

As to whether it does refute what I said, here are some things that will govern the results you see.

1. The dog in this video has a very high amount of prey drive, how much did it have before the e collar was used? Got video of that or any way to measure the level of drive before or after, I woukd suggest no so an after video doesnt really prove much.

2. If the dog is trained in prey drive & polished with the collar, this can eliminate the loss of drive when the dog has very high prey drive, but when it doesn't your just left with reduced drive.

3. The dog in the video doesnt appear to be wearing an e collar nor is it lacking in drive. Just one other way to create this is to create a collar smart dog, plenty of drive collar off, not as much collar on. This is probably not the case here, but it is one way that many trainers will lower drive to shape new moves, then whe they are right indicate to the dog the collar is off & drive pops back up.

4. It is known that, the purpose of corrections are to lower drive, that's the whole reason for no corrections in drive or motivational work unless absolutely necessary, so whilst this dog may not have lost drive overall or the dog regained drive or any other reason, corrections reduce drive. Thats a known fact.

5. When I made that command it means "generally", some dogs have so much drive, you would need a lightning bolt to reduce it, most though dont, and in my experience, those dogs when stimmed after the command lose drive. Show avoidance, overly submissive & nervy behaviours.

The above five points are some of things I look for over many years of training to help guide me to better methods. I too started with the avpoidance method but switched & developed the method I use now around 6 or 7 years ago.

I am not trying to get you to use my mtehod, I do very well with it & I find that I can train people in this method very easily meaning less mistakes / stress on the dog.

[Cosmolo]

I know its trained in prey drive K9, (I said when posted "its not an e collar one") but having spoken to Bart he uses an e collar on all of his dogs in combination with prey drive rewards. The video to me is the finished product- not the training process. I was simply suggesting that its possible to use an e collar after a command AND maintain drive. I am not trying to prove you wrong K9- i am just posing questions and my experiences as you are so yes i realise it was me who asked the question and that you can only answer based on your experiences. Do you have a video of early training using the method? (and i just loved that video and wanted to post it!)

I agree with you that corrections reduce drive. I just don't consider such low stim on a dog to be a correction and my contention is that i don't believe it always reduces drive.

Why would the dog be second guessing whether a correction is looming? The dog still controls the stim when you use it after the command?

I just find it hard to comprehend that there is such a vast difference between applying a stim on a low level 1/2- 1 second before the command vs 1-3 seconds after the command. Applying the stim after the command does not have to = a correction IMO.

K 9 "but I believe that whe we use the stim first, it highlights the right move not the wrong move. The stim can be applied throigh several distractions but turned off only when the right resppnse has been offered (usually with guidance from the handler)"

This is where i get confused K9 because this is exactly what i do- we still guide the dog, turn the collar off when the right response is offered etc.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Cosmolo

[Cosmolo]

Staranais, i understand what you're saying- i know the stim is not unpleasant/ painful for the dog. It just still makes me uncomfortable at this stage, given that i haven't seen the advantages of doing it this way. I would definitely go and see someone train in this way though and maybe doing so would change my mind.

[Steve K9Pro]

I know its trained in prey drive K9, (I said when posted "its not an e collar one") but having spoken to Bart he uses an e collar on all of his dogs in combination with prey drive rewards. The video to me is the finished product- not the training process.

K9: Then I am not sure why you posted it & stated "i think this vid refutes that lowering of drive definitely/ always occurs when using the stim after the command. I am still looking for more."

I was responding to that comment as were talking about training with the e collar reducing drive not finished products weren't we?

I was simply suggesting that its possible to use an e collar after a command AND maintain drive. I am not trying to prove you wrong K9- i am just posing questions and my experiences as you are so yes i realise it was me who asked the question and that you can only answer based on your experiences. Do you have a video of early training using the method? (and i just loved that video and wanted to post it!)

K9: I have many hours video, cant see how that can help? I can also give you links to loads of people that are training in drive with me, the work in a lot of these videos looks much like what you linked us too, but doesn't prove or disprove what I said.

The point being is that, you posted a video to prove somewhat that drive can be maintained, I simply responded to that. I will agree that drive can be regained in many cases but often is lost through avoidance training.

I agree with you that corrections reduce drive. I just don't consider such low stim on a dog to be a correction and my contention is that i don't believe it always reduces drive.

K9: Ok & you may not where others may. This conversation would now go into your ability to read & understand drive reversal/reduction etc, nothing really to do with the question though & probably not productive.

The method you are describing compels the dog to comply, the reason has to be that it is a correction, a negative stimulus that reduces the likeliness of the behaviour that was happening just preceding the correction.

This means that it is a correction, & you agree corrections reduce drive.

Can drive be regained? sure in most cases.

Why would the dog be second guessing whether a correction is looming? The dog still controls the stim when you use it after the command?

K9: because the behaviour that precedes the stim can be different each time.

I just find it hard to comprehend that there is such a vast difference between applying a stim on a low level 1/2- 1 second before the command vs 1-3 seconds after the command. Applying the stim after the command does not have to = a correction IMO.

K9: Then why would it work? I know that you cant see the difference, that doesn't make it not true though.

K 9 "but I believe that when we use the stim first, it highlights the right move not the wrong move. The stim can be applied through several distractions but turned off only when the right response has been offered (usually with guidance from the handler)"

This is where i get confused K9 because this is exactly what i do- we still guide the dog, turn the collar off when the right response is offered etc.

K9: The difference is you are asking the dog to do something, the dog fails to comply for any amount of reasons, you apply the stim (the dog see's this as aversive or it would have no effect). The dog is not able to pair this correction with anything twice.

Unlike when you stim first, this gains the dogs attention, you give the command & the dog is already within your control & you have its attention, you can guide & teach a new behaviour through the dogs self experimentation.

EG: stim command drop, the dog can try a load of behaviours but when it achieves the drop position, the stim turning off marks the position the dog is now in is what buys the reward (reward = stim off)

As I have said, both work, no disputing that. But I use the collar as a teaching tool not a replacement for a check chain,I also use them a communication tool, the stim cues the dog that a reward is available, the dog knows I give commands in these circumstances that helps the dog achieve the reward & switch off the stim.

I used to use them as you do but, I found through research & testing that the way I use now works better.

If you try it, take all things into consideration, you may too? Or you may not. Doesn't really matter to me but if you really want to know, hearing my point of view, comparing it to others wont help, you will fall to the side of the best explanation perhaps, when really you need to see the results in the dog/s not the forum.

[Cosmolo]

I posted the video because i know how bart trains his dogs- perhaps i should have said that the end result using this method is not always a dog with lower drive. Note that i said 'definitely/ always' meaning that i am sure in some cases drive does reduce- but just not every case.

You may not see how video could help but i would like to see a video of a dogs first session using the e collar as you describe for my information and education. It may or may not 'help' but i would just like to see one. As you say, i need to see it in the dogs, not just hear about it on a forum.

I don't disagree with you with regards to drive being regained in some cases, i also think it can be maintained in some cases- based on my experiences, particularly with one of my own dogs.

Doesn't using the stim before the command still compel the dog to comply becausethe stim is not removed until the dog complies? Its not just an attention getter because you remove it when the dog has complied with the command, not just when the dog pays attention/ switches on?

I changed the way i use an e collar after seeing it used at Bart's workshop so i agree that things change when you see different results.

[Steve K9Pro]

You may not see how video could help but i would like to see a video of a dogs first session using the e collar as you describe for my information and education. It may or may not 'help' but i would just like to see one. As you say, i need to see it in the dogs, not just hear about it on a forum.

K9: I will have recent client videos but would have to ask permission to post those, I have some of my dogs but they are on tape lol... When I started e collar work digital media lets just say wasn't perfected.

When I say you need to see it in the dogs, I mean put a collar on dogs, set levels, train dogs, not everything will always be as it seems on video.

I don't disagree with you with regards to drive being regained in some cases, i also think it can be maintained in some cases- based on my experiences, particularly with one of my own dogs.

K9: Research isn't one dog though, always remember that.

Doesn't using the stim before the command still compel the dog to comply because the stim is not removed until the dog complies? Its not just an attention getter because you remove it when the dog has complied with the command, not just when the dog pays attention/ switches on?

K9: It is the attention getter, the attention stays with you until the move is complete.

I changed the way i use an e collar after seeing it used at Bart's workshop so i agree that things change when you see different results.

K9: Keep in mind to that, when I demonstrate methods in my workshops, they may not be the exact way I train, what I demonstrate also takes into consideration that people will interpret results differently.

I also only run workshops for learners with untrained dogs, so what people will see is what they will get with their own dog.

[Cosmolo]

I know research isn't one dog and don't base my decisions on one dog, however knowing a dog as well as i do one of my own puts me in a good position to be able to see what a technique is capable of- in some cases.

Agree that a video or workshop isn't everything but it does provide an idea.

[Erny]

I agree with you that corrections reduce drive. I just don't consider such low stim on a dog to be a correction and my contention is that i don't believe it always reduces drive. ... Applying the stim after the command does not have to = a correction IMO.

If it is not a correction, then why let the dog fail in the first place?

I just find it hard to comprehend that there is such a vast difference between applying a stim on a low level 1/2- 1 second before the command vs 1-3 seconds after the command.

It's not just the outward behaviour that we should be looking at, but also the inward 'emotion' - which would be affected by the dog's own perception of the stim. When I saw that video - which was an example of some excellent work - I also thought the dog is a high prey drive dog and breed and I wonder if his method of stimming as a punishment would work to such exemplary standards on non-working line/low prey drive dogs. And what about for those who don't use 'drive' so much as the main motivation to train their dogs?

K 9 "but I believe that when we use the stim first, it highlights the right move not the wrong move. The stim can be applied through several distractions but turned off only when the right response has been offered (usually with guidance from the handler)"

This is where i get confused K9 because this is exactly what i do- we still guide the dog, turn the collar off when the right response is offered etc.

But if you're only guiding the dog and if the dog is not perceiving the stim as a correction, why teach it that non-compliance might be worthwhile trying? That's the part I don't 'get' in the method that you describe in your use.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Erny

[Erny]

I changed the way i use an e collar after seeing it used at Bart's workshop so i agree that things change when you see different results.

What differences did you notice when you switched from one method (I presume the low stim/R-) to the one you use now (low stim/P+)?