2 X 2 Weave Method

[milzi09]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here as I am a new member but have really enjoyed looking over everyones ideas so far.

I have just started agility with my dog in SA and as a purely positive trainer I have had to do a lot of training research myself because the clubs in my area are not clubs that train with purely positive methods. I have come across Susan Garretts 2x2 weave pole method which looks fantastic and I would like to give it a try. I have done a fair amount of research on the net as well as watching lots of you-tube videos but unfortunately I cannot afford the DVD at this point in time to get the whole picture.

Can anyone help with giving me a broad summary of the method?

Where I get stuck is the first part - eg getting the behaviour of going straight through the two weave poles. Do you shape it? My dog is good at free shaping but when the weave poles come out is waiting for me to target him through or he targets the pole and doesn't go past it. I guess I need to break it down into much smaller steps eg look at the pole, step towards the pole, move towards the pole etc.

I have a very food motivated dog rather than toys (so not sure if this method will even work because of this).

Any help would be much appreciated.

[JulesP]

Yes the first step is to shape through the poles. No body movement from you or encouragement to go through the poles.

Susan says that you can do it with a food dog but I think it would be easier with a toy dog. I was ok with 4 poles with my mainly food dog but after that I ran into some difficulties. If you can get the dog to go to a food bowl or something from the start rather than throwing the food that might help.

[milzi09]

Would a manners minder work?

[Nicole...]

I have a completely food driven dog and we taught her weaves with this method... I have to say that her weaves are the only thing we get consistent congratulations on so I can definitely say that you can use this method for food driven dogs!

We didn't have the DVD but were taught this method at agility training. We started off with 2 poles and just walked in the direction of them and stopped. Initially if she looked at the poles she got a treat. Then when she made a step towards them, then when she walked between them (we also kind of approached from the correct side to make it easy). There were times when we would just stand there staring at them and nothing would happen so after 30 seconds or so, we would turn around, walk away and approach again. In no time at all she started to offer behaviours including walking through from the incorrect side, which we would just ignore, go back and approach again and treat when she did it correctly. Once she had that down pat we added a 3rd pole, then a 4th, then added 2 at a time etc until we got up to 12. Each time she pulled out, missed a pole, entered from the wrong side we just went back and did it again, treated like crazy when she got it and she soon learnt.

I want to go back and reteach her contacts using shaping now (if I knew how!) as they are nowhere near as consistent as her weaves

This video was taken a couple of months ago and she is much faster now but it shows that it does work anyway

[JulesP]

Susan wasn't keen on the manners minder in her blog. Actually just read it again and she doesn't like the food on a plate either! She prefers a toy stuffed with food.

http://susangarrett.wordpress.com/2009/01/...-motivated-dog/

There is the article.

[milzi09]

I can understand why she wasn't keen on the manners minder. I do have a tug it starter so will use this instead.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I tried with a manners minder quite a while ago. Unfortunately it wasn't valuable enough i.e. my dog wasn't hugely driven to get there.

I think it might be quite successful on dogs who are crazy about the manners minder though.

Mel.

[milzi09]

Thanks for all the replies! I did some sessions on it tonight and with Kiesha (who I haven't started agility with) got it straight away. She is much more toy motivated so it helped. She went straight through the poles only getting a couple wrong.

My other dog Chip who I am doing agility with wasn't so successful. All he wanted to do was target the poles. I didn't reward that and just ignored it and he got increasingly frustrated. Eventually instead of touching the pole he would go past it (just) and I would click and throw the toy (here at home he'll play tuggy so trying to build some value in it) yet the second he heard the click he would turn around and look at me for the reward rather than going after the toy. Should I not bridge so that he continues looking for the toy and a game of tug?

In the second session I tried with food (probably should have kept going with the toy but I wanted to see if I had more success) whilst he still doesn't go straight through the middle of the poles and will always revert back to targeting the poles when he doesn't get a reward in all I had more succes. How do I get him to go straight?

[ness]

Think it was on SG's blog or somewhere in the dvd where she mentioned not using a clicker/bridge. Would have to go back and have a look though as I can't remember where it was discussed.

[milzi09]

Thanks Ness. Had a quick look at SG blog and she does briefly mention not using a clicker/bridge. So I'll just drop it. I'm sure this will help alot!

[JulesP]

Yep no clicker because it tends to make the dog look at you and the aim is for the dog to look straight down the poles with a fairly low head set.

If you want to totally shape it then I guess you have to just wait until the dog gives you something to reward. If I could see my dog getting frustrated then I would chuck a couple of bits of food through the poles, but I am not that into purely shaping. So I guess it depends on how pure you want to be with it.

[Pippi]

Yep no clicker because it tends to make the dog look at you and the aim is for the dog to look straight down the poles with a fairly low head set.

If you want to totally shape it then I guess you have to just wait until the dog gives you something to reward. If I could see my dog getting frustrated then I would chuck a couple of bits of food through the poles, but I am not that into purely shaping. So I guess it depends on how pure you want to be with it.

In which case you are not shaping, you are luring. You would then need to have a clear understanding of the difference betweeen luring and rewarding and when to remove the lure and only reward. You can help your dog along without resorting to luring.

[JulesP]

Yep no clicker because it tends to make the dog look at you and the aim is for the dog to look straight down the poles with a fairly low head set.

If you want to totally shape it then I guess you have to just wait until the dog gives you something to reward. If I could see my dog getting frustrated then I would chuck a couple of bits of food through the poles, but I am not that into purely shaping. So I guess it depends on how pure you want to be with it.

Read the whole post Pippi.

[Pippi]

Yep no clicker because it tends to make the dog look at you and the aim is for the dog to look straight down the poles with a fairly low head set.

If you want to totally shape it then I guess you have to just wait until the dog gives you something to reward. If I could see my dog getting frustrated then I would chuck a couple of bits of food through the poles, but I am not that into purely shaping. So I guess it depends on how pure you want to be with it.

Read the whole post Pippi.

Ummm, I think I did read the entire post which is exactly why I made the above comment. I also read carefully the original post in which the OP asks for "a broad summary of the method" i.e. Susan Garretts 2x2 weave pole training method.

Susan's method is based on shaping not luring. Producing the reward only after the desired response from the dog so the dog pairs the value of the reward with the work i.e. going through the poles.

You can lure if you want to, but if someone wants to know about SG's 2x2 method then advising them to "chuck a couple of bits of food through the poles", is totally going against the way Susan trains her method.

[kelpiechick]

You can lure if you want to, but if someone wants to know about SG's 2x2 method then advising them to "chuck a couple of bits of food through the poles", is totally going against the way Susan trains her method.

Well said Pippi.

For the OP - in all honesty, this is not a method I would be trying to train without either the guidance of an experienced trainer OR the e-book and DVD.

And don't get me wrong - I think it's a brilliant method from what I have seen so far. (Haven't trained a dog 'from scratch' yet but I retrained my young dog with it to work on entries, and the results blew me away, in 2 weeks he was making entries independently that I still have to babysit with my more experienced dog)

However, it is a method that leads itself to a lot of misinterpretation when training.

A lot of people read a set of instructions and then go out and train it and don't get it right, so it ends up being 2X2 trained with a lot of tweaking here and there -(which may still get results but may also create 'baggage' down the track) as Pippi says, not what SG would recommend. You only have to watch what's out there on You-Tube and there are as many clips posted where people are getting it 'wrong' as there are those where it is being trained correctly.

The other thing you are missing without guidance is 'troubleshooting'. (also covered on DVD)

Plus the foundation for this method - you really need a dog that is what I would call 'operant' as even though you are not using a clicker, your dog must understand the process of offering a behaviour and working through this if he is 'wrong' and does not get a reward.

SG recommends going back and working this step if you have a dog that needs 'luring' to get it into the poles originally.

Another reason why the checklists that come with it have a space to record any stress signs you note in your dog - too many stress signs and your dog may not be ready for this method just yet.

There are many other methods of teaching weaves out there that still give good results - although I have yet seen anything to rival the entries of this method.

Although it gives good 'driving through the poles and head down' so does channel weaving if taught correctly.

We teach channels at club mainly because it is the 'easiest' to teach - not necessarily any easier to learn, you still need to put the work in- but with a group of instructors with hugely varied levels of expertise, as you will find in most clubs, it was the best way to get consistency. But I would have no hesitation in using 2X2 with private students if I thought they were going to put the work in at home.

Have never tried WAM's but the footwork these create appear to be way better than any other method - although sometimes I wonded if it's just 'BC genetic related' :cool:

My advice would be save your money and get the DVD if you really want to use this method.

I definitely wouldn't be teaching it with bits and pieces of advice from a forum

In the meantime, use the time while you are saving up to work on trick training and shaping with your dog as this will give you an excellent foundation for teaching the method.

You could also go to some trials, look at the dogs whose weaving you admire and talk to the handlers about how they achieved their results. Most handlers are happy to answer questions - providing you don't accost them as they are entering or leaving the ring of course.

[JulesP]

Chucking a couple of bits of food a couple of times to help a confused, frustrated dog is hardly going to stuff up the whole method. It is more showing what you want than luring. You can then go back to shaping. I didn't have to do this btw as Poppy went through the poles on her own. Just trying to help the OP but will not bother to give any advice on this forum again.

[milzi09]

You are right I think you do need to view the DVD. I found another trainer I instruct with who has the DVD and I'm going to borrow it off her for a while in a couple of weeks time.

My dog is 3 years old and I have done alot of work on shaping with him since he was a young pup. I really don't think inexperience with this is the issue, but more I don't understand the method well enough.

Thank-you for your comments kelpiechick they are valid - I think I was just being a bit impatient.

[milzi09]

JulesP - thankyou for your help, I do understand where you are coming from.

[kelpiechick]

Chucking a couple of bits of food a couple of times to help a confused, frustrated dog is hardly going to stuff up the whole method. It is more showing what you want than luring. You can then go back to shaping. I didn't have to do this btw as Poppy went through the poles on her own. Just trying to help the OP but will not bother to give any advice on this forum again.

JulesP, firstly please don't think my comment relating to forums not being a good place to learn a method was aimed at you - I honestly don't think a forum is a good place to learn anything as written comments are very open to misinterpretation no matter who makes them. Nothing personal meant there and certainly not a reason to stop offering advice to anyone. But it's part of a forum that when you put comments out there, it is very likely there are people who will disagree with them, no matter who you are. If I didn't want people disagreeing with what I post, then I guess I would never post at all.

Forums are a good place to get differing opinions and sort through them, but you then need to make an informed decision yourself.

I also didn't say that luring would 'stuff up' the whole method - but for me, if a world class trainer has developed a system , after many years of trialling it, and has strict guidelines for training this system, then I am not going to tweak it when I run into a 'roadblock' where I am not getting the behaviour I want.

To me this means I need to go back and do more foundation first. Another reason why I recommended getting the DVD to the OP.

The reason SG doesn't want luring is that the dog is learning to follow food and doesn't even look at the poles when following food through so in effect is not understanding the first step at all as there is no 'thinking' involved. (It also goes against her training philosophy of not showing reward first ie: no bribes) For me also, I want to develop my dog as a thinking, problem solving dog not afraid to offer behaviours. I made the mistake of doing things to make it easier in many situations with my older kelpie and although I didn't think I was 'stuffing him up' at the time - because I got the behaviour I wanted, when I compare his working through a new learning experience now with the younger one that I have had more patience with and let him work it out himself - well there's a massive difference. And in a split second decision on a Masters course I know which dog I'd rather have.

milzi09 - glad you found someone to help you out - and I can relate about the impatience thing. But dogs appear to learn this method pretty quickly, so no need to rush.

[trishalouise]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here as I am a new member but have really enjoyed looking over everyones ideas so far.

I have just started agility with my dog in SA and as a purely positive trainer I have had to do a lot of training research myself because the clubs in my area are not clubs that train with purely positive methods. I have come across Susan Garretts 2x2 weave pole method which looks fantastic and I would like to give it a try. I have done a fair amount of research on the net as well as watching lots of you-tube videos but unfortunately I cannot afford the DVD at this point in time to get the whole picture.

Can anyone help with giving me a broad summary of the method?

Where I get stuck is the first part - eg getting the behaviour of going straight through the two weave poles. Do you shape it? My dog is good at free shaping but when the weave poles come out is waiting for me to target him through or he targets the pole and doesn't go past it. I guess I need to break it down into much smaller steps eg look at the pole, step towards the pole, move towards the pole etc.

I have a very food motivated dog rather than toys (so not sure if this method will even work because of this).

Any help would be much appreciated.

I could have written this post!! I have my poles gathering dust in the garage because I haven't been able to get my hands on the DVD yet! I have the day to myself today and was going to get them out - but after reading this thread I will make myself be patient and wait until I have the DVD!! Does anybody know the best place to get it from in Aus?

Trish