Recall Question?

[zsimms]

Trying to figure out how to teach recall to an 11 mth old dog who has learned not to come. My husband and I are taking him on from my parents who have helped him learn some unhelpful habits. We have lived on the same property since they got him but we will be moving soon to a much bigger property and he will be accompanying us everywhere which should help ease his boredom.

His history:

He is a Kelpie, very bright but needs direction as all dogs do.

His owners have never trained a dog before and from what I have seen they have been pretty confusing with their methods, but my biggest behaviour to change would be his recall.

When he sees something that takes his fancy he is off, chasing and barking and will not come back when called. Then when he's finished his crusade he comes back, gets smacked and tied up on a lead.

So in my view he has learned to ignore the human word as it's confusing and then he is being punished for coming back when he finally does, which doesn't help to encourage recall.

In a short focussed training session, just working on basics like sit, stay, come and drop he is fabulous and has amazing eye contact but as soon as he's just hanging around the yard and hears something, he's off and no amount of yelling COME will bring him back.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

P.S he also barks non stop when he runs off and I read another topic on teaching the command speak to then teach the dog not to bark? Is that a good idea?

Thanks,

Z

Edited May 12, 2009 by Troy

[poodlefan]

What ever cue your parents used.. don't use it. Train a whole new cue word - the old one has been poisoned by punishment.

Reward EVERY time the dog comes. Start with low levels of distraction and high rewards.

I'd not be letting him offlead at all when a recall is important - use a long line.

Personally, I don't know of anyone who's managed to curb problem barking by putting it on cue.

Edited May 12, 2009 by poodlefan

[Erny]

Assuming recall training is in place for on-lead circumstances, I'd recommend training with an RT. I have used (and coached in the use of) the e-collar - kindly and safely, for dogs who have identified and exploited the difference between on-lead and off-lead. The results are usually very quick and command response becomes considerably more reliable.

Note : In case you are unfamiliar with the use of e-collars, I am recommending the low-stim/negative reinforcement methodology. It is NOT about causing your dog unnecessary discomfort or fear.

If you wanted to explore further down this track, I'd suggest you check into the laws of your State. In Victoria use of the e-collar is permitted but you must have a letter from your Vet confirming the dog's health is suitable for e-collar application and you also must use under supervision of a trainer suitably qualified. You are also supposed to have the trainer (or Vet - can't remember which without re-checking the law, which was only modified with these conditions back in November of 2008) certify every 6 months.

I think you might find that your dog's barking would also diminish without particular effort, if training as per the above. But that's difficult to tell completely without observing the dog first.

Edited May 12, 2009 by Erny

[fbaudry]

Purely out of curiousity, I have a very stupid question: how would the e-collar work?

Is the idea to interrupt the dog when he performs the unwanted behaviour (eg chase a prey) to get his attention and call him?

or is it the opposite, let him run, then call him and "buzz" him if he doesn't come as a negative reinforcer?

[Esta]

The kind of RT training suggested involves teaching a dog that he can control the uncomfortable stimulation by (in the early stages) returning to the owner. It does seem to work well, in this case the kelpie's belief system could be changed from 'evade the human when your called and avoid the punishment' to 'avoid the punishment by coming when called.' This might sound a bit harsh but in reality the dog gains confidence because the required behaviour has been made clear, and avoiding a 'bad' thing effectively and consistantly is a strong motivater in and of itself!

Not that I'm bagging a 100% rewards based system for training recall, but if what the dog has already learned from bitter experience and what you want it to learn are completely opposite, it's just not going to stand up to the 'distraction factor'.

[Erny]

Esta explained it pretty well :cool:. I guess I'm just being a bit technical when I say that "punishment" is not exactly the word I'd use when I use it as I do. Firstly, it is at a level where it is an annoying stimulation. The best description using words to describe would be anywhere from a tingle to a flea bite sensation. Secondly, because the stimulation comes first and is taken away when the dog performs, it isn't really "punishment" as punishment is something given because of an unwanted behaviour.

For example, if your dog was bitten by a flea, I would doubt you'd see that as the dog receiving punishment. However, when the dog scratches and removes the sensation, he learns that is what he needs to do to remove the discomfort.

Swap "flea bite" with "e-collar stim" and swap "scratch" with "recall" and that is pretty much how it works.

The big difference is that in the early training, the dog doesn't have to try to guess what behaviour will remove the stimulation (although admittedly 'scratch' is a natural reflex so a bad example in this last instance) as the early work is conducted on lead and the dog is shown what to do to achieve that.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Erny

[doglova]

I'm very very interested in this having a dog who is reward trained but for off lead recalls this is her sequence. I call her name say come shes a distance out of reach she stops looks around and continues on her way grrrrrrrr. She arrives back to me when she has finished her exploring. If my dog can never do anything else i don't care but i really want a reliable recall. In a confined area she will come straight away

However.... if shes in a big paddock she knows i can't do anything about getting her she continues on her way. I have rewarded highly comes in the house paddock and other confined areas but as soon as shes out in a bigger paddock or slightly distracted nope shes on her own.

Am i right in thinking if i had a e collar i would call her the second she doesn't respond she is annoyed with the collar then turned up if she still ignores. My only worry would be that she might bolt away further to escape the annoyance rahter than comming to me. Has this happended to anyone it is one thing stopping me from trying. I can see that it would work other than my fear of her nicking off further. Years ago we had a fence jumper and put an electric fence up she tried it twice then never again we only then put it on in when we knew a storm was coming so mostly in summer or knew fireworks were around.

Sorrry for the long post but i'm really interested to hear any feed back before making my investment.

[Erny]

Am i right in thinking if i had a e collar i would call her the second she doesn't respond she is annoyed with the collar then turned up if she still ignores. My only worry would be that she might bolt away further to escape the annoyance rahter than comming to me.

Different trainers use different methods with the use of the e-collar. IMO, to NOT teach your dog what the stim is about as well as NOT building up the dog's training level to the point you describe is fraught with danger and I don't know of any reputable trainer who understands e-collar use and training who would do it that way.

So in short, no. I would not teach that way. I teach the dog that the low level stim she feels can be turned off by her when she complies with my command which is about to follow. I begin this teaching on lead and in a structured fashion within a controlled environment and only then begin to work the dog in different environments doing the same. It is after that that I begin at looking to remove the lead. By this time, the dog has full knowledge of the stim, is not startled by it, and knows exactly what to do to control it (ie comply with the command).

If you would like to contact me by telephone I am more than happy to talk to you to explain it better, Doglova. If you click on my signature link it will take you to my website and contact info.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Erny

[Just Midol]

Hey Erny,

How to you handle an unexpected distraction.

For example, Gizmo was fairly well proofed on Turkeys, I knew his working level rose slightly but it was only 3-4 levels. However, one day we encountered a rarity at my house which was a huge group of Turkeys, around 30 of the bastards. Proofed on one Turkey obviously didn't mean proofed on 30 running Turkeys.

I had 2 options here:

1) Increase the stim, it would have to go above his working level. It was very obvious working level alone would not do anything.

2) Not recall as Gizmo is too slow to catch Turkeys.

I went with 2 to start with as I figured if he did get close to Turkeys then I'd simply give him a correction when he got close but then the Turkeys shot through the neighbours fence so now I had to recall. I had to go about 15 levels higher than his working level for it to be a high enough level of stimulation for him to pull off the Turkeys.

So, how would you have handled this? I know I'm suppose to set the situation up so we don't encounter this but we only get the huge groups of Turkeys once, maybe twice a year and I didn't see them when I set out so it was unexpected.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Just Midol

[Erny]

I would be inclined to do the same in that scenario, Midol. You've increased the stim until he's become aware of it. Which IMO, if I've understood properly what you've done, equates to using only the exact level needed for his perception at that time/moment. However, if I could have I would have returned him to a long line situation and re-worked the situation on a lower-stim (ie working level out of drive) situation to confirm the training.

[Just Midol]

Unfortunately the Turkeys wouldn't return to let me use them in training

I can't really be certain whether I got the perfect level (what he could percieve) as he was running away from me but I let go of the stim as soon as he showed signs that he was turning towards me and he never showed any avoidance (that I could identify) so I think I am okay there.

Gizmo is pretty switched on though, I'd put money on him recalling off the Turkeys next time.

Anyway, good to know I did the right thing. I meant to post up asking how people handle unexpected major distractions a few weeks ago, but I procrastinated. If I had have done it earlier I would have known for certain what to do.

[Quickasyoucan]

Anyway, good to know I did the right thing. I meant to post up asking how people handle unexpected major distractions a few weeks ago, but I procrastinated. If I had have done it earlier I would have known for certain what to do.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

As someone who knows nothing about e-collars but who has a dog with less than perfect recall say 85-90% can you explain to me how long you would use the stim for to obtain a recall. What i am trying to say, and using the apply the stim first method that has been talked about in the other thread on e-collars, would it be:

apply stim command "here" (or whatever) release stim when dog arrives.

OR

apply stim command "here" and release stim when dog starts to recall?

Presumably the first but then if you have a dog that is working at some distance say 200 metres away wouldn't that mean a long period of stim?

I am just curious.

Also as someone already asked, is there a risk that the dog might just blow you off if you have to increase stim in say the case that Midol has just given, or is it that the stim will naturally reduce drive. I am just thinking about those intensely high distraction times when you might have missed the first cue that a dog is going into drive. For example my dog when he was young chased cars on a couple of occasions and it could be nothing to gone in a split second (luckily he has outgrown that)!

[Erny]

Anyway, good to know I did the right thing. I meant to post up asking how people handle unexpected major distractions a few weeks ago, but I procrastinated. If I had have done it earlier I would have known for certain what to do.

If your on-lead foundation training has been done well and consistently and you've proofed to distractions as much as you can before you move to the off-lead stage, your dog has the knowledge of what the stim is about, consequently it is not stressful as it would be if the dog didn't understand and you'd moved too far too fast with training. This is where is really is essential we don't try to hurry more than we should.

[Erny]

apply stim command "here" (or whatever) release stim when dog arrives.

OR

apply stim command "here" and release stim when dog starts to recall?

Presumably the first ...

Not in the early stages, no.

When the dog is just learning, I start by releasing the stim as soon as the dog turns and looks. Then I move on to removing it once the dog is just in the early stage of returning to me. To promote speed with the return, you hold the stim a bit longer. I admit I haven't done the latter with my boy as his recall is so fast and so powerful, it is already daunting!

It is similar to clicker training/shaping. You might want a dog to pick up a dumbell, for instance. In early shaping/clicker training, you click when the dog even first glances at the dumbell. Then (for example) when he takes a step towards the dumbell. Then when the dog touches the dumbell. So what you're doing here is waiting longer and longer as the training progresses before you give the 'click' signalling to the dog the behaviour you want and that reward is coming.

Also as someone already asked, is there a risk that the dog might just blow you off if you have to increase stim in say the case that Midol has just given, or is it that the stim will naturally reduce drive. I am just thinking about those intensely high distraction times when you might have missed the first cue that a dog is going into drive. For example my dog when he was young chased cars on a couple of occasions and it could be nothing to gone in a split second (luckily he has outgrown that)!

If you haven't done the foundation training with the e-collar and you use it out of the blue (especially on high stim) then it is possible not so much that your dog will "blow you off" but that he will pair the stim with something else in the environment and that the stim might cause him to startle more and run off in panic. So if you did this to an untrained-to-the-e-collar-dog running after a car he might not register that the stim was because he was chasing the car. He might instead think the stim was due to that piece of paper on the ground that he spotted in the split second that the stim was applied.

If foundation training has been done properly, I personally don't know of dogs (either that I've worked with or that others have worked with) that has "blown off the owner". Also, the stim is increased through the levels, so that the dog will respond JUST as the level is sufficiently high enough to have been perceived/acknowledged and responded to as is its habit from the foundation training you've previously done.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Erny

[Quickasyoucan]

Thanks Erny, it is much clearer now.

Can I ask did you choose to use the e-collar for recall from the get go with your boy? Or did he already have issues with recall.

I am just trying to explore (for future dogs!), the best way to teach a really really reliable recall...

Sometimes I think that really those of us who don't have perfect recall do play russian roulette when we have dogs off leash, obviously you try to minimise the risks, but it would be nice not to have to worry about them.

And I suppose I am trying to understand the place for e-collars in training, are they something that you ideally wouldn't use, but give you that extra bit of control, or are they something that you would incorporate into training because they are so effective???

[Erny]

Can I ask did you choose to use the e-collar for recall from the get go with your boy? Or did he already have issues with recall.

Predominantly, I have used "training in drive" to establish his obedience skills. However, I could tell from body language when out and about on the lead that it was unlikely this would sufficiently compete with certain other distractions in the environment. Because I am training in drive, I preferred to use a tool in such a way that was not only 'kind' (e-collars have the benefit of no other collar in that there is absolutely NO influence on the dog's muscular or skeletal structure) but would not be deleterious to the drive that I had built.

I have not ever put my dog in a situation where I was unable to enforce the recall command, so no, I have had no prior learnt issues with that.

And I suppose I am trying to understand the place for e-collars in training, are they something that you ideally wouldn't use, but give you that extra bit of control, or are they something that you would incorporate into training because they are so effective???

If we're talking an 'ideal world' I would have more people using them than not. But expense; dedication to training; goals in training; willingness to be tutored in training; and all those other factors vary from one person to another. Sometimes people's goals is just to not have their dog pull on the lead and in everything else, they are happy. So for those, whilst the e-collar would still work perfectly (and if done properly, IMO more kindly for the dog .... ) the e-collar is more than what they need (financially speaking) and satisfaction of State Laws make it the more onerous (and fair enough - I would like ANY training tool to come with some cautionary controls) - so the more readily available conventional training tools and methods are used.

Edited May 19, 2009 by Erny

[Quickasyoucan]

Can I ask did you choose to use the e-collar for recall from the get go with your boy? Or did he already have issues with recall.

Predominantly, I have used "training in drive" to establish his obedience skills. However, I could tell from body language when out and about on the lead that it was unlikely this would sufficiently compete with certain other distractions in the environment. Because I am training in drive, I preferred to use a tool in such a way that was not only 'kind' (e-collars have the benefit of no other collar in that there is absolutely NO influence on the dog's muscular or skeletal structure) but would not be deleterious to the drive that I had built.

I have not ever put my dog in a situation where I was unable to enforce the recall command, so no, I have had no prior learnt issues with that.

And I suppose I am trying to understand the place for e-collars in training, are they something that you ideally wouldn't use, but give you that extra bit of control, or are they something that you would incorporate into training because they are so effective???

If we're talking an 'ideal world' I would have more people using them than not. But expense; dedication to training; goals in training; willingness to be tutored in training; and all those other factors vary from one person to another. Sometimes people's goals is just to not have their dog pull on the lead and in everything else, they are happy. So for those, whilst the e-collar would still work perfectly (and if done properly, IMO more kindly for the dog .... ) the e-collar is more than what they need (financially speaking) and satisfaction of State Laws make it the more onerous (and fair enough - I would like ANY training tool to come with some cautionary controls) - so the more readily available conventional training tools and methods are used.

Thanks Erny for such a comprehensive answer as usual

I'm with you about the training tools, pity people look at some as "evil" and others which have the potential to cause harm if used wrongly are sold to any old Joe in the supermarket or pet superstore these days.

[Just Midol]

Yeah, Gizmos fairly confident and definitely knows how to turn the stim off, we've been going for months He recalls of almost everything, before these turkeys I'd have said it was 99% - he sometimes waits a few seconds before recalling once he spots an Ibis.

[callee]

Bringing up a slightly old topic - can anyone recommend a brand of e-collar that is okay and not overly expensive.

There are heaps on e-bay but I am concern they won't be safe.

[laeral]

I would be wary of the ones on Australian ebay as I believe that it is far more effective to have a quality collar that will give a consistant and reliable stim. Some of the cheaper models can be a little iffy. Just MHO of course. I have used a cheaper model in the beginning stages of my training and found it very difficult to get any reliability out of it, making training fairly useless. I now own a Dogtra, more expensive, but I believe it is worth it.

I understand you can now import from OS so that may be an option to look into as well, as they are much cheaper in the US for instance. There are some quality E-collars on the US ebay.

Edited May 29, 2009 by laeral