Wont Drop Without Food

[Blitza]

I got a 5mth old pup(aussie shep) that wont drop unless she knows i got food in hand, she does other commands brillantly without constantly using food.I was told her sister has a stubborn streak in her to.any ideas? i have tried doing one drop with food and one drop without, and she has worked this out!

[Joan of Arc]

The only thing I could suggest would be to spend some time doing the drop with food and each time slowly extend the time between the drop, the bridge word and the reward. We have a bitch with a stubborn streak, she wont drop either, but that's how we won her over.

But there are lots of professional trainers on DOL that will have a much better solution for you.

Good luck

[Blitza]

Thanks i have trialled dogs up to CDX level, and this my first time i have come across this hurdle im looking forward to differant peoples ideas.

[dogdude]

The solution would be to get the food off you, and on to the ground as a food target as in the TOT method pinned to the top of the training forum. You can still use a food lure for positioning etc,...just never reward with it.

[kallistar]

Thanks i have trialled dogs up to CDX level, and this my first time i have come across this hurdle im looking forward to differant peoples ideas.

Have PM you..

[Blitza]

just been working on it and so far so good,i been able to out smart her , without force of cause, just by pretending i was guiding her down with the food, and when she dropped i than rewarded, after she was consistantly doing this, i tested her by not using food at all for a few drops and she done it, so know im click and rewarding when she drops.

I did a short heel work, by just doing one sit,stand and drop in a line with out using food and she done it

I just had to work out a differant way in going about it. My next obstacle is the dumbbell she wont have nothing to do with it even if i play with it, she ignores it HELP, i just want to get her used to it thats my aim so it will make the progression to formal work later on that much easier.

[Erny]

i have tried doing one drop with food and one drop without, and she has worked this out!

By the sounds of it, you've shown her quite clearly that if you don't have food in your hand, she won't be getting any. If I had a boss who made it so clear that I would only get paid for my work if he showed me the money in his hand, you can bet I'd pretty quickly stop working for him on the days/times when he wasn't waving the $$$ notes around.

You started training by using the luring method, by the sounds of it, and then tried to wean off from luring. This is good, but it just sounds as though your weaning process needs a bit of help.

Go back a step or two in your training. Lure your pup to the drop a few times, just to refresh memory and get a 'pattern' going.

After these few repetitions, your lure hand will smell of the food. Use your lure hand in exactly the same way as you did when you lured (ie pretend as though you have a lure in your hand). As soon as she is in the drop position release her (I use a release command in my training - don't know if you do) and within half a second after you've given the release command, deliver a food treat. You can have the food treat in a pocket, a food treat pouch or on a dish very nearby (but out of her reach) at this stage.

You have now begun to teach her that the food treat still happens even though it is not in your hand.

At this stage of the game you are still food treating on a continuous schedule of reinforcement. When the drop is happening regularly and reliably, you can (and IMO should) then move to an intermittent schedule of reinforcement. Food treat/no food treat/FT/FT/NFT/FT/NFT/NFT/FT/FT/NFT/NFT/NFT .... if you get my drift.

Once I have a dog at the point where the skill I have taught is happening well, I tend to randomise the reward he/she receives (eg. FT/game of tug) regardless of whether I'm on a continuous schedule of reinforcement or not.

Hope that makes sense or that it is at least enough for you to get through and over this current hurdle.

ETA: I should have read all the way through. Seems you've done the above and achieved success. Well done.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Erny

[leopuppy04]

how and what have you been trying with the d/b blitza?

[Blitza]

how and what have you been trying with the d/b blitza?

Just been trying to make a game out of it, like you do with tennis balls etc. only differance is i never leave the dumbbell out.

But once i get the squeaky ball out, its a differant dog.

She was picking it up as a 3mth old when at kerrys place as i was there when she was doing it.

Edited May 9, 2009 by Blitza

[dogdude]

I wouldn't be making a prey item out of the dumbell.

If you want to make an informal game out of it, make something else the reward for winning the game. (ie: The key to winning the game is bringing back the dumbell, which is then rewarded) (Squeeky ball pehaps?)

Edited May 10, 2009 by dogdude

[Blitza]

I wouldn't be making a prey item out of the dumbell.

If you want to make an informal game out of it, make something else the reward for winning the game. (ie: The key to winning the game is bringing back the dumbell, which is then rewarded) (Squeeky ball pehaps?)

i had no problems with my other 2 aussies with doing this, infact they are dumbbell obsessed because of it.

[Blitza]

man wish all solutions were as easily solved like this, i found by placing elasto plast tape around the mouth piece of the dumbbell worked, Ash successfully retrieved on 5 consecutive goes and i gave tons of praise!!!

Ash is fetching the dumbbell, not the formal way just a fun game way, least its a start.

[dogdude]

i had no problems with my other 2 aussies with doing this, infact they are dumbbell obsessed because of it.

Having an obsession with an article will cause more problems than it will fix in most cases, but if its bringing you success in the ring, then great. This type of training often causes mouthing, and reliability problems.

My response was more directed by the information that you gave us regarding your dogs drive. ie; the ball had more value than the dumbell. Thats good! Use it to your advantage.

My advice would be to watch some dvds featuring drive training. Once you understand the rules of basic drive training (food or prey), you will be able to answer most of your own questions.

[Blitza]

i had no problems with my other 2 aussies with doing this, infact they are dumbbell obsessed because of it.

Having an obsession with an article will cause more problems than it will fix in most cases, but if its bringing you success in the ring, then great. This type of training often causes mouthing, and reliability problems.

My response was more directed by the information that you gave us regarding your dogs drive. ie; the ball had more value than the dumbell. Thats good! Use it to your advantage.

My advice would be to watch some dvds featuring drive training. Once you understand the rules of basic drive training (food or prey), you will be able to answer most of your own questions.

my other 2 are reliable and non mouthers,infact they go for months without no work at all, and when i bring them back into work they instantly remember what to do.

I have also began formal training with the dumbbell once they turned the age of 1, the intial game part is to make the dumbbell a fun thing and nothing to fear, and i have always found this to work.

[laffi]

Blitza, if you trained your other two dogs so well and know how to do it all, why are you asking us questions and wasting our time?

[Erny]

I wouldn't be making a prey item out of the dumbell.

If you want to make an informal game out of it, make something else the reward for winning the game. (ie: The key to winning the game is bringing back the dumbell, which is then rewarded) (Squeeky ball pehaps?)

Agree with Dogdude.

[TrinaJ]

I 'still' have the same issue with drop with my bitch, first dog that I've never been able to drop without food - she is the most stubborn dog I've ever come across. Its so frustrating, I am ure we will be in Level 1 for ever, she is 18 months old now. She is so focussed on the food that nothing else matters.