Gettign Ready To Trial In Ccd

[Joan of Arc]

We are getting ready to trial our girls in their first trial in July. Last weekend I was a steward at a trial (for the first time) and in conversation with the other stewards etc I passed the comment that Tina tends to heel a little behind my knee. I'm pretty sure this is because when I first started training her I was on crutches and maybe she thought she was going to get a whack in the head

Different people have suggested that given she is a Labrador to just bait her forward with food and keep shovelling it in while she is in the correct spot. But I am reluctant to do this. Surely there is a better way that doesnt involve food? She is also easily excited so I was going to try and avoid the bouncing ball of squeaky toy technique.

Any suggestions? I would love to try anything you can suggest.

[The Spotted Devil]

Food is surprisingly effective as a training aid and, if used correctly, does not mean your dog will become dependent on it. The 'shovelling' in of the food is only used to teach the dog that the heel position is the best place to be in the world. I actually shaped the heel to begin with but will certainly try the former method for my next pup. Once they get the hang of that you can use a marker (I use a clicker) and begin to reinforce the position every few steps - you mix it up so you are reinforcing randomly. Then mark the behaviour but use food from a container held by someone or hidden by a tree so that having food on you (or not) doesn't become a cue in itself. At Sue Hogben's recent seminar she said you are not ready to trial until you can build duration to 5 mins of heel work without a reward! Not sure that I will be quite that prepared for CCD but it's certainly a goal. The trick is to practice duration heeling as a separate exercise in big circles and different speeds but without the addition of halts, drops, stands and turns.

My favourite Sue Hogben quote: "Dogs that don't perform are either confused or underpaid"

I hope that helps - best of luck

ETA: Ziggy just had 2 cups of dry food for his dinner and he had to work for every last scrap.....speed drops/sits, steady feet on the sit and stand, finding heel, holding the article without chewing....etc. He's owed at least another cup of dry food for dinner and is as keen as mustard to do another session but I will give him a break and finish training later.

Edited May 7, 2009 by The Spotted Devil

[huski]

Total training novice here - is there something wrong with using food or toys as rewards? If you work to increase the dog's drive and focus using their primary drive (be it food or prey) you could get amazing heel work. I am yet to come across a 'better' way of getting great obedience out of a very food driven dog other than using food I don't think there is anything wrong with using what is most motivating for the dog - maybe I am just lazy because I am always inclined to use the best and most efficient method when it comes to training

ETA: I will never phase out the food I use in training, I will just increase the time that the dog can work without getting a reward. I'm not silly - I know what best motivates my dog and I know she will never work as well purely for praise or whatever.

Edited May 7, 2009 by huski

[poodlefan]

Get someone to video you or tell you about your body position.. do you tend to watch over your shoulder to check her position?

Sometimes a subtle turn or drop in the left shoulder is enough to cause the dog to lag just a little. Make sure you look ahead, not to your left to check on her and only try rewarding her from your right hand across your front, not from the left.

Just out of interest, why doesn't the food idea thrill you?

Edited May 7, 2009 by poodlefan

[TerraNik]

My (limited) experience has been that the lagging behind is a lack of drive and poor handler body language. The moment I built up Jedi's food drive and started walking with a purpose, was the moment he stopped lagging. When heeling, instead of me moving my hand towards his face, I made him drive forward to get it while heeling - so he learned that the rewards come when he's that little bit further ahead from where he was positioning himself. These subtle changes have made the difference.

[Joan of Arc]

Get someone to video you or tell you about your body position.. do you tend to watch over your shoulder to check her position?

Sometimes a subtle turn or drop in the left shoulder is enough to cause the dog to lag just a little. Make sure you look ahead, not to your left to check on her and only try rewarding her from your right hand across your front, not from the left.

Just out of interest, why doesn't the food idea thrill you?

Thanks for the suggestion of the video poodlefan, OH can do that for me because we are in a later class than him.

I think you may be correct about the drop of shoulder etc. Having had a knee replacement I dont always feel that steady on my feet in the dark and so sometimes I tend to check where she is so I dont trip etc. I am left handed and so have made a real effort to use my right hand to signal but do treat with my left hand. I do that because I see other dogs at training every week, sitting across their handlers left leg waiting for the treat from the right hand, instead of being beside the left knee.

Its hard to explain why the food thing doesnt thrill me. I have used it before with our boy and very successfully, he is fantastic. Tina is a very excitable little girl, who we call wiggle bum for a reason. She is over excited when food is around and I wanted to try to work her with out it. I admit she does work well when there is food but others have said to try with another form of stimulus.

Plus she is a lab and a 'good doer' so anything she gets at training has to come out of her daily food allowance.

But I will try your suggestions and thanks for the advice.

[Joan of Arc]

Thanks TerraNik I will take that info on board as well as the great advice from poodlefan and others.

Appreciate the replies.

[dogdude]

Yep, learn to master drive, rather than to avoid it. A car needs an engine........so does a trialling dog!

[m-j]

Yep, learn to master drive, rather than to avoid it. A car needs an engine........so does a trialling dog!

What a great way of putting it!

cheers

M-J

[Keshwar]

I am left handed and so have made a real effort to use my right hand to signal but do treat with my left hand. I do that because I see other dogs at training every week, sitting across their handlers left leg waiting for the treat from the right hand, instead of being beside the left knee.

Why not use your left hand for your signals? I do. As I'm a lefty it is way easier for me to use my left hand for all signals. The bonus is that your left hand is usually right in front of your dog so you don't have to twist your body to complete a signal.

I think the main reason that people tell you to use your right hand is that they are right handed.

Bear.

[Joan of Arc]

I am left handed and so have made a real effort to use my right hand to signal but do treat with my left hand. I do that because I see other dogs at training every week, sitting across their handlers left leg waiting for the treat from the right hand, instead of being beside the left knee.

Why not use your left hand for your signals? I do. As I'm a lefty it is way easier for me to use my left hand for all signals. The bonus is that your left hand is usually right in front of your dog so you don't have to twist your body to complete a signal.

I think the main reason that people tell you to use your right hand is that they are right handed.

Bear.

I was naturally using my left hand when I first got promoted to this class - where we started to work off lead - and every week the instructor was correcting me about using my left hand and telling me to use my right hand. Then we got a different instructor who told me to use which ever hand I wanted etc but by that time I had started to use my right hand and now its almost habit.

I received a PM from a DOLer about thier club conducting mock trials and inviting me to join them for a practice. I thought that was a good idea but they are about 10 hours from me. It would be great if those of us within a couple of hours of each other could organise something similar. I find I like to learn from others and often trade ideas from outside the usual source.

what I have decided to do is to get OH to video me training her, I will use my right and then my left hand and see which works best for the dog.

[Trisven13]

As you know Mercedes I'm no obedience trialling expert BUT I've just started working Marie both in the ring and at obedience with a lot of food. The difference in my dog is AMAZING - just wait until you see her! She has enthusiasm and drive and is loving it. I know Tina has the enthusiasm and drive anyway but it can't hurt to give it a go hey?

[Tibbiemax71]

mercedes, our club holds "Training Trials" , just have a look in your Border Bark, it will say when the next one is, its on a Sunday, its the first or second Sunday of the month from memory.

Oh, I would go the food to

[Joan of Arc]

As you know Mercedes I'm no obedience trialling expert BUT I've just started working Marie both in the ring and at obedience with a lot of food. The difference in my dog is AMAZING - just wait until you see her! She has enthusiasm and drive and is loving it. I know Tina has the enthusiasm and drive anyway but it can't hurt to give it a go hey?

Drive Tina has drive to spare and when you get food out the drive starts at the bum end and drives all the way through to the head

You've seen her in action, how much drive should she need but she is a little over the top when food is around and I just thought that if I introduced excess food (I already bridge and reward) that I might have to start again and that would frustrate both of us.

I think too with pups at home and moving house etc I havent been overly focused on teh bigger scheme lately.

[Joan of Arc]

mercedes, our club holds "Training Trials" , just have a look in your Border Bark, it will say when the next one is, its on a Sunday, its the first or second Sunday of the month from memory.

Oh, I would go the food to

Thanks Tibbiemax71, I knew about the training trials but a couple of us were under teh impression they were every 3rd Sunday of the month. AS for where our copy of the BOrder Bark is - do remember we have recently moved house so I can give you the standard movers reply ITS IN A BOX

I'll check on Tuesday night - wasnt there last week.

[m-j]

You've seen her in action, how much drive should she need but she is a little over the top when food is around and I just thought that if I introduced excess food (I already bridge and reward) that I might have to start again and that would frustrate both of us.

You're right it will frustrate you, until the dog learns exactly what is required to get the food, and you learn how to harness her drive, then you won't look back.

cheers

M-J

[Joan of Arc]

You've seen her in action, how much drive should she need but she is a little over the top when food is around and I just thought that if I introduced excess food (I already bridge and reward) that I might have to start again and that would frustrate both of us.

You're right it will frustrate you, until the dog learns exactly what is required to get the food, and you learn how to harness her drive, then you won't look back.

cheers

M-J

Thanks m-j, I'm determined to do this right and will persist, we go to shows and exhibit and do well enough but I really enjoy the obedience and working gundog side of things and believe I would rather do that.

[Tibbiemax71]

I have emailed Sam to find out for you when the training trials are, will let you know when I find out, cant find a Border Bark either and I cant use the "just moved" excuse

[Joan of Arc]

I have emailed Sam to find out for you when the training trials are, will let you know when I find out, cant find a Border Bark either and I cant use the "just moved" excuse

We've been here a month now so maybe I wont be able to use it much longer either

[Tibbiemax71]

Training Trials are the 3rd Sunday of the month 9am. So there's one next Sunday. Except if there's a local trial on like ours, or Wagga or Wang. We dont have one in December or Jasnuary.