Heidii Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 I am training my dog in agility at the moment and have had a problem this week with him stoping and sniffing the ground continully while trying to train (he is entire). I havnt been correcting this behavour and now its getting worse. All i have been doing is calling him over to me and telling him to go over the jump again etc. My partner thinks i need to correct him alot more, as in scruff him and get mad at him. I dont know what to do, im affraid that if I correct him to much he might shy away from me (as he has done in the past) but im worried if i let him get away with it too much then he will continue to test me. When he was a pup (7 months old) I got really mad at him once after I told him to get into his 'encloure' and he ran the opposite direction. Well I'll let you now, When i give him that command these days HE RUNS SOOOO FAST that he runs into things to get into his enclosure cos he still remembers that day when he was younger - never to test me with that. Is this something I just have to take a risk with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Have you looked at how you've proofed his commands/focus in distracting environments? I can't talk in regards to agility because I don't do it, but if I lose Daisy's focus I give her a quick 'ah' to get her focusing back on me. If it happens consistently I'd consider that I need to do more work to proof her commands under distraction etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 My entire Dally is highly motivated to sniff and pee A couple of things that I do - which have been backed up by my attendance at Sue Hogben's seminar - firstly, make sure the dog is HUNGRY and have some super, yummy tasty treats that won't break apart. Start just with flat work and practice the two food game....so working on your left or right side, reinforce the position by throwing food in front of you ("Get it!"), then turn and run in the opposite direction - as soon as the dog catches up with you (you need to indicate left or right side), reward immediately, 1 or 2 paces, throw food etc. The dog learns that you are a more reliable source of food than if he remains sniffing on the ground for leftovers. There's lots of variations on that game that you can utilise in flat work and on the course. Another thing that I do at the end of training is reward Zig by allowing him to go and have a good session of sniffing, peeing and scraping - it's taken patience and persistence but he really understands when it is allowed and not allowed. Also, don't let your dog disengage from you when you have stopped training - give him a clear 'ok' command that means he is now ALLOWED to sniff. Once you believe your dog truly understands that work means work, I would consider removing the dog from the training environment without fuss and putting him in the car/crate. A simple non reward marker that works very well as long as you have done your preparatory ground work. I don't even bother with a correction - Zig either couldn't give a toss or refuses to work. It is much easier on both of us if I use motivation. Hope that makes sense - on the better side of a migraine so head is just a little fuzzy today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~*Shell*~ Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I built Zero's focus up on me by telling him it was time to work (he sits at heel to start with) and then every time he looked at me, i would give him a treat. If he kept looking at me, he got another treat and another. I did this for a while to build up his focus on me and now i don't have to constantly feed him to hold his attention. Now if he looks away or sniffs the ground, he gets an "ah" to bring his attention back to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke W Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Personally, I wouldn't be correcting the dog. What if he continues to sniff - do you continue with ever increasing levels of correction? Is he sniffing because he's stressed, bored or confused? Sniffing can be a 'displacement behavior' or is he sniffing because that's more interesting than what you have to offer? Barkly is a very nose focussed dog and would take to ground sniffing during training. About 2 months ago I started to use the Premack principle and put sniffing on cue. I also made an effort to be more enthusiastic about training and also increase his reward levels for focus. It's making a world of difference. His focus is better, he's working with much more enthusiasm and he sniffs less. While on lead - at the start, when he was sniffing, I would get his attention somehow, then click and reward as soon as he looked at me, then tell him "go sniff" and disengage. He would go sniff - as soon as he switched attention back to me - click and reward and another round of go sniff. Pretty soon - the 'go sniff' time got shorter and shorter. Now - I get him to do a couple of exercises, then tell him to "go sniff". He wanders off for a few seconds and then comes back to re-engage - if he's giving good focus - click and reward. Worth a try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) Ground sniffing is quite a common avoidance behaviour seen in agility. Dogs who display it may be stressed. Scruffing him for avoiding you isnt' going to make him want to be with you and work is it.. you need to get his focus back and hold it. It's fine to quietly take him by the collar and bring him back to where you want him but any more negative a correction than that would see you given a time out and a chat from an instructor about appropriate training techniques at my club. Ask yourself if there's any chance you are over facing or putting too much pressure on him before you write this off as him blowing you off. I get a general impression you are in a fair hurry to get into trialling - is he ready? At any rate, you need to stop, get his focus back and continue. If he does it, get him to come to you, do one obstacle and big reward. Are you drilling him over equipment repeatedly? Does he understand what's required of him? Can he handle shorter sets without this behaviour? Edited May 5, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) Fantastic post Luke W Btw my golden retriever is a famous sniffer dog and we worked through it by making myself more exciting than all the smells out there. I am happy to say I never corrected her (although was encouraged by some ). Don't want to sound rude but sounds to like like your partner doesn't know much about training (don't worry mine doesn't either ). Edited May 5, 2009 by laffi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) Don't want to sound rude but sounds to like like your partner doesn't know much about training (don't worry mine doesn't either ). LOL, well he has been training since he was like 5 years old and has been an instructor for the german shepherd dog cub...he thinks he knows alot more than me and tells me the dog needs rules. I've tried it the nice way now do it the harder way he thinks. He is a positive trainer but thinks there has to be some sort punishent in the 'getting mad at him' sense when he just wont listen.... i know this has worked in the past but its a risk Edited May 5, 2009 by Heidii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbaudry Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Personally, I wouldn't be correcting the dog.What if he continues to sniff - do you continue with ever increasing levels of correction? Is he sniffing because he's stressed, bored or confused? Sniffing can be a 'displacement behavior' or is he sniffing because that's more interesting than what you have to offer? Barkly is a very nose focussed dog and would take to ground sniffing during training. About 2 months ago I started to use the Premack principle and put sniffing on cue. I also made an effort to be more enthusiastic about training and also increase his reward levels for focus. It's making a world of difference. His focus is better, he's working with much more enthusiasm and he sniffs less. While on lead - at the start, when he was sniffing, I would get his attention somehow, then click and reward as soon as he looked at me, then tell him "go sniff" and disengage. He would go sniff - as soon as he switched attention back to me - click and reward and another round of go sniff. Pretty soon - the 'go sniff' time got shorter and shorter. Now - I get him to do a couple of exercises, then tell him to "go sniff". He wanders off for a few seconds and then comes back to re-engage - if he's giving good focus - click and reward. Worth a try? Really worth a try for me! Luke, are you travelling to Sydney anytime soon to mentor me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Personally, I wouldn't be correcting the dog.What if he continues to sniff - do you continue with ever increasing levels of correction? Is he sniffing because he's stressed, bored or confused? Sniffing can be a 'displacement behavior' or is he sniffing because that's more interesting than what you have to offer? Barkly is a very nose focussed dog and would take to ground sniffing during training. About 2 months ago I started to use the Premack principle and put sniffing on cue. I also made an effort to be more enthusiastic about training and also increase his reward levels for focus. It's making a world of difference. His focus is better, he's working with much more enthusiasm and he sniffs less. While on lead - at the start, when he was sniffing, I would get his attention somehow, then click and reward as soon as he looked at me, then tell him "go sniff" and disengage. He would go sniff - as soon as he switched attention back to me - click and reward and another round of go sniff. Pretty soon - the 'go sniff' time got shorter and shorter. Now - I get him to do a couple of exercises, then tell him to "go sniff". He wanders off for a few seconds and then comes back to re-engage - if he's giving good focus - click and reward. Worth a try? Yeh i like this idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) Don't want to sound rude but sounds to like like your partner doesn't know much about training (don't worry mine doesn't either ). LOL, well he has been training since he was like 5 years old and has been an instructor for the german shepherd dog cub...he thinks he knows alot more than me and tells me the dog needs rules. I've tried it the nice way now do it the harder way he thinks. He is a positive trainer but thinks there has to be some sort punishent in the 'getting mad at him' sense when he just wont listen.... i know this has worked in the past but its a risk IMO there is a time for corrections (even voice corrections) and with anything there is no point in using them it's not the clearest way to communicate to the dog. I would only correct a dog if they failed to comply with a known command, and I knew they were blowing me off (i.e. it wasn't for any other reason such a stress/too high a distraction level etc). Most times a simple 'Daisy!' or 'Look!' will get her back on track. I don't think simply being harder on the dog is the best route to take when it's an issue with focus. You can't force a dog to focus on you or see you as more exciting than the smell on the ground. Edited May 5, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) Don't want to sound rude but sounds to like like your partner doesn't know much about training (don't worry mine doesn't either ). LOL, well he has been training since he was like 5 years old and has been an instructor for the german shepherd dog cub...he thinks he knows alot more than me and tells me the dog needs rules. I've tried it the nice way now do it the harder way he thinks. He is a positive trainer but thinks there has to be some sort punishent in the 'getting mad at him' sense when he just wont listen.... i know this has worked in the past but its a risk Yes, the risk for a dog that has no idea what it's supposed to have done is that it will avoid you even further. We've got the bigger brains.. and we are one half of an agility team. Make very sure that you have trained him and conditoned him to be able to understand and excecute your signals. Make sure that you give clear direction and keep him motivated. If your partner is "scruffing" dogs for "disobedience", he ain't what I call positive. It also isn't very effective if the aversive isn't being given in a timely manner for particular behaviour. It's just bullying IMO. If the training isn't going well, take a step back, ask the dog for something you know it knows well and reward it. My honest advice? Don't train with your partner.. train with a club. You are probably a little stressed yourself by his presence. My guess is that he's not an agility instructor? Edited May 5, 2009 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) you could try this dog sniffing..do absolutely nothing, don't move, don't speak. He will eventually do something else, look around, sit, lie down. YOU GO TO HIM and reward with a treat do not call him to you and reward that behaviour. Rev him again for sniffing he must be on lead. repeat. repeat till he is not sniffing, it works, it takes time and patience, in some dogs they have sniffed for over 15 minutes before offering a different behaviour, so you need patience. The second rev may be 10 minutes and so on. When you are down to a few seconds or no seconds play with him, do some tricks to take his mind off his stress Edited May 5, 2009 by Rusky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I agree with poodlefan. Is there a particular place/time/type of equipment that you work with when he starts sniffing? Is there possibly food on the ground? (our last trial, Kaos took off after the tunnel and sniffed for what seemed like ages - he doesn't normally do that - turns out there was food on the ground! I got his attention back though and we finished) Zoe used to sniff for ages around the table - no idea why - I think maybe because this club had carpet like material on the top of the table and it probably smelt really nice! I would not correct and certainly would not scruff for sniffing in agility. Maybe go back to basics and built up more value for the obstacles. Have you seen Susan Garrett's One Jump DVD? Explains building value for obstacles well. If they are keen on agility it is unlikely they will sniff at training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natsu chan Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Heidii what works with a German Shepherd won't work on a Collie. The sort of correction the average Sheppie will laugh at will make a Collie very upset. Collies are sensitive, that is in fact what is so challenging about them they get bored easily and aren't adverse to staying make me, but heavy corrections will erode their confidence. If you watch his body language, get someone to film you doing a run. You will see the moment where he loses concentration, concentrate enough and you will become attuned to it. When that moment comes get his attention, call him do something to get his mind off the floor and back on you. Even if it does mean running around like a goof ball initially. He's young and entire right? Don't be in too much of a hurry make haste slowly. You've got all the time in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) What everyone else said But just to add, if you are certain (ideally once a good agility instructor has told you so) the dog knows whats expected, a calm, quiet time out can really help if the dog loves agility. This worked very well for my Cosmo dog as she would get so excited (because she loved agility) that she would bolt and choose other pieces of equipment to jump on. As soon as she realised this meant she wouldn't get to do agility, she concentrated much more. She only needed 3 time outs in total- also helped by the fact that i would then work my other dog in front of her while she was timed out. Edited May 5, 2009 by Cosmolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 I get a general impression you are in a fair hurry to get into trialling - is he ready? I dont think this is an issue. Why should you only trial if your dog has been training for a certain amount of time or is up to a certain standard? He can go around a course and thats all the matters. Is he ready to trial???....well is he ready to train? A trial for me will simply be a training day, in a different environment with a pen and paper. Im not looking for ribbons at the moment, im needing the experience in the ring and that in my opinion is alot more important. Trialing should simply be looked at as just another normal traning day for you and your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I get a general impression you are in a fair hurry to get into trialling - is he ready? I dont think this is an issue. Why should you only trial if your dog has been training for a certain amount of time or is up to a certain standard? He can go around a course and thats all the matters. Is he ready to trial???....well is he ready to train? A trial for me will simply be a training day, in a different environment with a pen and paper. Im not looking for ribbons at the moment, im needing the experience in the ring and that in my opinion is alot more important. Trialing should simply be looked at as just another normal traning day for you and your dog. Because to ask your dog to do more than he is prepared for will over face him. I've heard all that before Heidii but the fact is that trialling is different to training and you will communicate that to your dog. If you cannot read a course, figure out a handling strategy and handle your dog to achieve it, you are not ready. If your dog is not reliably performing all obstacles and fully conversant with what is expected of him, he is not ready. No one ever walked into a trialling ring without hoping for a pass Heidi. No one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 (edited) I get a general impression you are in a fair hurry to get into trialling - is he ready? I dont think this is an issue. Why should you only trial if your dog has been training for a certain amount of time or is up to a certain standard? He can go around a course and thats all the matters. Is he ready to trial???....well is he ready to train? A trial for me will simply be a training day, in a different environment with a pen and paper. Im not looking for ribbons at the moment, im needing the experience in the ring and that in my opinion is alot more important. Trialing should simply be looked at as just another normal traning day for you and your dog. I have to agree with poodlefan here, I wouldn't rush my dog just because *I* want trialling experience despite my dog not being ready for the ring. I don't think it's about me at all, I wouldn't push my dog just for myself. I won't enter my dog in a trial until I know 110% that she is ready for it and she will perform to the best of her ability. I wouldn't trial and just hope to pass, I want to trial when I know we are ready and we're going to give it all we've got. Shouldn't our dog being ready be more important than what we want? Edited May 6, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 I get a general impression you are in a fair hurry to get into trialling - is he ready? I dont think this is an issue. Why should you only trial if your dog has been training for a certain amount of time or is up to a certain standard? He can go around a course and thats all the matters. Is he ready to trial???....well is he ready to train? A trial for me will simply be a training day, in a different environment with a pen and paper. Im not looking for ribbons at the moment, im needing the experience in the ring and that in my opinion is alot more important. Trialing should simply be looked at as just another normal traning day for you and your dog. Because to ask your dog to do more than he is prepared for will over face him. How will I be asking him to do more than he is prepared for? The Trialing course is the SAME as the training one with my dog club part from the obstacles being in the different order! We arnt do anything different. We are training as if it was a trial...but without the pen and paper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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