Erny Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) I am glad you have found a solution with the enzymes. It's a bugger that it has taken this long to diagnose the problem. The problem's not exactly diagnosed just yet, but I'm hopeful. And I'm not sure, but I might have myself confused. Not sure if what I have ARE actually the enzymes Dr. Bruce was talking about or whether what we have is to help out until Dr Bruce knows more about what's going on. On a poopy note, Mandela had a restless/uncomfortable night and wasn't as 'into' his breakfast this morning. And his poops were sludgy today . But I'm sure he's put on condition since Monday . I've emailed Dr. Bruce to let him know what's happening. On a side not I love the name Mandela. I named on of my past foster puggies Nelson, after Nelson Mandela, because he had a very dark face and prominent saddle markings despite being a fawn pug. Thanks PP . I rather like it too . ;) ..... I call my boy "Nelson" when he's naughty. That's if I'm not calling him other less savory names . I heard another name last night - I think it was on "The Zoo" and the carer called a baby wombat a name that started with "M" and meant "My Man" or "My Little Man" or similar. I called Mandela that a lot when he was just a little pup and I thought I'd like to remember the name for my next dog (although might not be appropriate if I get a bitch), but I can't remember it. Oonga - I really appreciate that you are thinking of us . All going well we'll be at KCC Park this weekend. Not sure if I'll bring my boy with me or not, although I'd really like to do some practical work on the intro to tracking, if Karl will allow. I believe that's on the agenda though. I trust we shall see you there? Edited May 13, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oonga Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Erny, No we are not doing the seminar unfortunately I have a 12 hour shift on the sunday and having just come off 2.5weeks Annual Leave I knew i would be pushing it if i asked to have Sunday off as well I am sure it will be lots of fun and very informative though!!! I get the impression that the whole point of taking your dog is to do some practical work? But I am not sure. You can fill me in on it when its all over ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rijbiz Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Ernie, the wombats name was Matari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Yes! That's it! Thanks Rijbiz . I knew I could rely on a DOLer to have picked that up and remembered it. I really like that name. Matari. If it wasn't for the fact that it meant "my man" or "my little man" (can't remember which) I would have named my next dog that even if she was a bitch. Wonder what the equivalent of "my little girl" is. I can't even remember what language they were referring to. Edited May 14, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) Faecal test results have come in showing normal pancreas function. Communicating with Dr. Bruce as we speak, about diet and strategy. I think there's going to be a bit of trial and error time for the next two weeks at least and Dr. Bruce has asked that I stay in touch with him to let him know details of how things are going. So it is still all a puzzlement. ETA: And I was confused earlier. The additive I have is basically just a skin/coat formula (not enzymes). Dr. Bruce has suggested it still might be worthwhile adding enzyme formula but recommends I wait until we can see how things go over the next couple of weeks. Will keep you all informed, although probably won't have anything conclusive to report for a while. ETA: 'Spoke' with Dr. Bruce - I'm having a TLI blood test taken this coming Monday (through my local Vet so another trip to Castlemaine is not necessary). This blood test is to confirm pancreas function is ok (or not). It's a double up, but from what I gather a more accurate investigation and a way of double confirming what the faecal sample test result has shown. Worthwhile doing in my (and Dr. Bruce's) opinion given that all Mandela's symptoms over the last 5 months fitted the theory of a pancreas not functioning properly. Edited May 14, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oonga Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 hmmmm that is a bit of a disappointment I mean not that i was hoping that Mandela had a malfunctioning Pancreas, but I was hoping that some sort of results would show up Well lets hope this means that whatever it is ends up being really minor and easy to treat Erny is it worth getting in touch with the breeder to see if any of the other puppies have anything like this and how they are tackling it?? Also can you possibly get in touch with the stud dog owner to see if they have come across something like this?? Obviously i don't mean accuse them or anything, but i would suspect an ethical breeder would want to know about issues their puppies are having anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 (edited) hmmmm that is a bit of a disappointment I mean not that i was hoping that Mandela had a malfunctioning Pancreas, but I was hoping that some sort of results would show up I know what you mean, Oonga. I'm split between being happy the pancreas is ok, but disappointed at still not knowing what the cause of his problem/s is. Erny is it worth getting in touch with the breeder to see if any of the other puppies have anything like this and how they are tackling it?? One of Mandela's litter brothers (that I know of) is having skin issues. I'm trying to get in contact with them. Obviously i don't mean accuse them or anything, but i would suspect an ethical breeder would want to know about issues their puppies are having anyway? Breeder did mention sometime way back (when the only issues were Mandela's carpal laxity, which has since resolved, and difficulty in getting weight on) that there was a dog in the lines owned by someone else who had trouble with maintaining weight. That's all I know of it though. Edited May 14, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) More new symptoms have been developing over the last couple of days (and they are the same as I have recognised in one of Mandela's litter brothers). As a result, I have a train of thought which I won't go into now for two reasons. One being that I haven't formulated in my mind a succinct way of explaining it in writing. The other being that I may be completely off the mark so it might prove to be a bit silly to go into it and confuse the information flow in this thread. But so that I can follow through with my thinking, I need a question answered, if anyone can (please ). Is there any one main organ that is responsible for the synthesis of vitamins (especially the Vitamin B groups and perhaps in particular Vitamin B6) in the body? And if there is, which organ or organs would that be? Edited May 17, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbear Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Lack of Intrinsic Factor from the stomach? S&S in humans are: Symptoms & Signs What are the signs and symptoms of the disease? A child with a congenital lack of intrinsic factor usually develops normally during the first 6 to 12 months of life. After this time, symptoms slowly begin and may include: irritability weakness developmental delays, in which the child progresses more slowly than usual in motor skills, language, or thinking diarrhea pale skin, or pallor decreased appetite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) Wow! That was fast, Gillbear. Thank you . Does this part of your posted answer "Lack of Intrinsic Factor from the stomach?" mean that it is the stomach that does the processing so that the rest of the system can absorb the Vitamins etc. etc.? That would come back to what we refer to as "malabsorption", wouldn't it? IE If the stomach is not processing the Vitamins efficiently, the other parts of the body cannot absorb it? Edited May 17, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbear Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) I am a student nurse, so no expert. My understanding is that with malabsorption (in humans) you want to start from the start and think of the proteins and gastric juices etc that do most of the breaking down in preparation for absorption into the body. Does this part of your posted answer "Lack of Intrinsic Factor from the stomach?" mean that it is the stomach that does the processing so that the rest of the system can absorb the Vitamins etc. etc.?That would come back to what we refer to as "malabsorption", wouldn't it? IE If the stomach is not processing the Vitamins efficiently, the other parts of the body cannot absorb it? Yes, if the process of breaking down food in the stomach and small intestine is not being performed properly then it cannot be absorbed through the intestines and bowel effectively and all those good vitamins will be wasted and just pass through. From my very brief googling the Intrinsic factor in dogs is mainly produced from the stomach and also pancreas. Lack of Intrinsic Factor seems to be an inherited trait. Intrinsic Factor and the absorption of B12 was a part of my last A&P exam. Ps: If the issue is a lack of Intrinsic Factor it can be treated but not cured with ongoing monthly B12 injections into muscle tissue. Edited May 17, 2009 by gillbear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) From my very brief googling the Intrinsic factor in dogs is mainly produced from the stomach and also pancreas. Lack of Intrinsic Factor seems to be an inherited trait. Intrinsic Factor and the absorption of B12 was a part of my last A&P exam. Thanks for the explanation. In Mandela's case, pancreas function gets the tick of approval, subject to a confirmatory blood test, bloods for which are being drawn tomorrow. Until then, for the time being, I would need to discard the pancreas as being the culprit for any (hypothesised) "Lack of Intrinsic Factor". So that leaves me with the stomach and maybe the salivary glands. Ok (remembering that we're working on hypothesis and assumptions here), so what is done to improve the IF if the stomach is the culprit organ? Would you happen to know, GB? I guess that if the pancreas were to be the culprit, enzymes added to the diet would assist. But would this also apply if it were not the pancreas that was, shall we say, malfunctioning, but the stomach? I read that to check the stomach for this, a biopsy of the stomach needs to be taken . Bummer. I prefer blood tests as the most invasive form of investigation, especially when we're just making (albeit 'educated') guesses. My head is spinning and thoughts are racing around my head right now, that I'm not so sure I can make sense of them anymore . Edited May 17, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillbear Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) Sorry Erny I wouldnt like to continue guessing. If Mandela's blood tests come back with low vitamin and mineral levels or low red blood cell counts it will give some more direction for the search, and hopefully target an area. Lack of B group vitamins and anaemia will be in the results if it is an Intrinsic Factor issue. Ask about the B12 injections, if they wont harm him at least it is something easy to try while you are waiting for the blood test results. Edited May 17, 2009 by gillbear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 Yeah - that's fair enough, GB. I'll speak to the Vet tomorrow . Thanks for your input though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oonga Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Erny how has Mandela been the last few days? Has he had the blood tests? What of your vitamin absorption theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 (edited) Hi Oonga . Blood tests came in yesterday. They were "within normal limitations" so pancreas problem of any description, it seems, has been completely ruled out. Which is a bit and a bit , if you know what I mean. I haven't furthered with the "Vitamin B" theory as yet. My local Vet explained that it wasn't as simple as drawing one test - certain Vitamin B's (& others) need to be taken as serum; others in special vials or whatever. He told me he'd be happy to draw bloods for whatever tests I'd like and that I just needed to give him a list. I didn't really know exactly what I should be asking for. So I didn't. Dr. Bruce is away and although he's been responding to my emails regardless (thanks for not leaving me on my own, Dr. Bruce), I didn't want to bombard him with my thoughts (wow! that'd be a blast ) at this time. Besides, for the moment he wants me to just stick to the diet he's prescribed (along with skin/coat formula and omega blend oil) for a total of 8 weeks. Then we'll see. I am to add enzymes as well - I've just ordered them and expect them to arrive by early next week. The enzymes because it isn't understood where all the food I feed my boy ends up going - it certainly isn't plumping him up, although I think maybe a little weight has been gained at least. His weight had again dropped away in the week before the last lot of blood was taken (half kilogram) so I'm trying to get that back on him plus some. At least for the moment Mandela is eating enthusiastically again. And at the present, his stools look ok. There seems to be a pattern of going well in this respect for a few weeks, and then not. So I'm holding my breath. He broke out into lots of little bumps all over his body (not from the diet). We're riding through it at the moment rather than treating it with washes and other chemicals. He's bearing with it reasonably ok - a bit itchy but trying not to scratch when I tell him not to. I'm going to get some Claratyne or Zirtec to have on stand by should they be needed, but I think the aim is to allow the body to deal with it without interference from other chemicals etc. if we can. Edited May 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oonga Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Hi Erny, for the update of the little not so little Man Hugs to you both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 No - thank you for thinking of us, Oonga. I am not expecting there will be much to report (out of the usual, at least) for the next couple of months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 How frustrating for you Erny Fingers crossed that the next few months yield some kind of positive result for you and Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 (edited) Thanks Cosmolo. I appreciate your wishes. Yes, it is proving to be very frustrating and time consuming, not to mention expensive. But I do keep forcing myself to remember back to Kal (bless her cotton socks), for whom I wouldn't have cared about any of that if only there could have been hope of recovery, which sadly in her instance, wasn't to be. So in that sense, I consider myself and Mandela lucky . Edited May 21, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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