Fear Aggression

[Just Midol]

Kk, disclaimer: This question is GENERALISING.

In general, is the average fear aggressive dog going to be more or less aggressive when in neutral territory?

GENERALLY. Not ALL dogs. AVERAGE.

I made those words capitals because I really don't want to see "all dogs are different" and I know some of you will be thinking it So just humour me

[Tilly]

Not having a "fear agressive" dog ... I suppose I can't really answer from experience but I would have thought they would have been more fearfully in neutral or unknown areas as there is all this new stuff going on around them.

I would assume they would be more relaxed in their own home environment ....

Just my view ... to humour you

[dee lee]

Having a fear aggressive dog, I have found that she is equally reactive at home and out.

Its the dog that bothers her- she is no less afraid of them at home.

Cant generalise, havent had much experience with FA dogs aside from mine.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i would say there would be no difference.

if the object of the FA is in both then the response would be the same.

[Tilly]

After some thinking and painting and some more thinking ... I started to think along the line of deelee and Jaxx'sBuddy.

If the dog had a fear of a dog - the reaction would expect to be the same either at home or in the big bad world.

When I had the thought of the outside world causing "more" fear aggression, I was thinking along the line of the outside world having more things that a "fear aggressive" dog would react too ... therefore more things to fear would expect to cause an increase in fear aggression.

So therefore if the dog had a fear of dogs ... the likelihood of coming across multiple dogs would increase the FA dog's stress levels ... so therefore more instances of stress would increase the overall level of stress/fear (particularly if the dog didn't have a chance to relax and go back to neutral between each dog).

A constant state of stress/fear may not really increase the levels of fear but should increase the chance or liklihood of fear aggression.

Does that make any sense?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

After some thinking and painting and some more thinking ... I started to think along the line of deelee and Jaxx'sBuddy.

If the dog had a fear of a dog - the reaction would expect to be the same either at home or in the big bad world.

When I had the thought of the outside world causing "more" fear aggression, I was thinking along the line of the outside world having more things that a "fear aggressive" dog would react too ... therefore more things to fear would expect to cause an increase in fear aggression.

So therefore if the dog had a fear of dogs ... the likelihood of coming across multiple dogs would increase the FA dog's stress levels ... so therefore more instances of stress would increase the overall level of stress/fear (particularly if the dog didn't have a chance to relax and go back to neutral between each dog).

A constant state of stress/fear may not really increase the levels of fear but should increase the chance or liklihood of fear aggression.

Does that make any sense?

makes perfect sense, and now you have me thinking again!!!!

so i am going to agree with you if there is no controls in either environment.

Howver, the question is very complex so it is difficult to answer easily. i have seen FA dogs show reduced fear when handled by a different trainer.

so if the environments were controlled and the same trainer was handling the dog, and the variances are the same in the neutral and non-neutral environments then the dog should show the same FA in either environment, ie in a controlled study.

if the neutral environment was not controlled then you are right, the dog would show more fear in the neutral environment.

[dee lee]

I have found that the manifestation of the fear seems to be slightly different depending on the environment- ie that at home my dog will be more confident and guarding in reacting towards passing dogs but when we are walking it seems more a panicked, defensive reaction. Regardless the intensity seems similar and is definitely fear based.

Jaxx's buddy, my take on the different trainer is that it may be due to uncertainty. My dog is always "on alert". Perhaps they have been watching to see what would happen. I would doubt that the reduced fear would last long- with a change in approach my dog always appears to be coping better, takes about 2 times and then we are back to square one. Just an observation.

[Nekhbet]

the worst thing you can do with dogs is generalise - since a lot of behavior is misdiagnosed as 'fear aggression' and there can be many variables that contribute towards the 'aggressive' outcome (I dont like that word) it may be worst, same or better in a 'neutral' environment. THe outcome can also be different with a new handler - give them a better handler and you can see a decrease in the outburst or even cessation.

[poochmad]

Speaking from experience.

Many years ago I had a fear aggressive dog - towards both people and dogs. He showed the same behaviour in or outside the house.

Our current dog went through a fear period and also showed the same behaviour at home or out.

So from my experience, if the dog is going to be fearful, it will show those behaviours regardless of its environment.

[Loyal K9]

I have a fear aggressive Sheltie. Apparently quite unusual for Sheltie to be aggressive??

He is the same in or outside the house.

He is aggressive toward other dogs but very friendly to our Norwich terrier.

We got him when he was 10 months old from a dog breeder. He has been aggressive from day one. Now he is 15 months old.

He is very timid toward us very different to the Norwich.

The worst thing is we see no improvement.

Last week he was lunging at a small dog in a park so I pulled the lead and blocked him. He ended up ripping my jeans (by accident).

Once he become aggressive he doesn't listen to any command.

Yes he is as bad in and outside the house.

It's ashame, he is a very gentle dog toward us.

[Nekhbet]

I have a fear aggressive Sheltie.

diagnosed by ...

is he shy, fearful or just aviodance

is he maybe not socialised

are you really sure its fear driving his behavior or lack of socialisation and a learned response to situations he doesnt like

Last week he was lunging at a small dog in a park so I pulled the lead and blocked him. He ended up ripping my jeans (by accident).

Once he become aggressive he doesn't listen to any command.

if he is aggressive then he shouldnt be in a park where there is stresses that can set him off. The point of taking him out would be to step by step train him to get over his problem not make them worst. Have you seen a behaviorist about this problem? THere are few dogs that are 'write offs' when it comes to being so aggressive, maybe there is something you guys have missed or misread in his behavior

[lucylotto]

everyone/anyone,

does the term 'fear aggressive' strictly refer to dog being fearful of other dog or can it be fear of people ?

[Nekhbet]

does the term 'fear aggressive' strictly refer to dog being fearful of other dog or can it be fear of people ?

it is aggressive responses brought about through fear the dog has irrespective of the object causing that fear.

[Kelpie-i]

NO DIFFERENCE (for the sake of your question Midol)

Your fear of spiders would be the same if you saw one at home or if you saw one hanging off a tree branch in front of you at the park. A fear is a fear and your conditioned response would be the same regardless of where you are.

Of course there are always variables but you don't want to hear those

[lucylotto]

does the term 'fear aggressive' strictly refer to dog being fearful of other dog or can it be fear of people ?

it is aggressive responses brought about through fear the dog has irrespective of the object causing that fear.

that makes sense, thanks nekhbet

[Loyal K9]

I have a fear aggressive Sheltie.

diagnosed by ...

is he shy, fearful or just aviodance

is he maybe not socialised

are you really sure its fear driving his behavior or lack of socialisation and a learned response to situations he doesnt like

Last week he was lunging at a small dog in a park so I pulled the lead and blocked him. He ended up ripping my jeans (by accident).

Once he become aggressive he doesn't listen to any command.

if he is aggressive then he shouldnt be in a park where there is stresses that can set him off. The point of taking him out would be to step by step train him to get over his problem not make them worst. Have you seen a behaviorist about this problem? THere are few dogs that are 'write offs' when it comes to being so aggressive, maybe there is something you guys have missed or misread in his behavior :D

He is a shy dog (I think).

When I come home my terrier will jump all over me asking for a cuddle.

The Sheltie will stand back and wait for several seconds. Only when I call him we will come. He is a cautious dog??

He is just not as calm as the terrier, when we call him he acts like he has done something wrong. Ears pointing back and lower his posture when he approaches us.

Likes he is going to get a smack. We don't smack our dogs, sometimes the kids tease them but they don't hurt them.

He is like that since we got him. Maybe wasn't socialised when he was a puppy.

We walk our dogs several times a week, daily in summer and during nice weather.

He is fine with few dogs that he knows in the park but most of the time he is just aggressive.

We haven't taken him to a behaviorist. We don't know where to find one.

Few months ago I asked here but someone said we don't have one in Perth???

I would be fantastic if we can fix the behaviour.

We bought him (through this forum) without seeing it first - BIG MISTAKE. He is from Sydney.

I was told he is a gentle dog. Well he is gentle to us but not toward other dogs (except other shelties).

It gets to the point that I want to leave him home and just take the terrier for a walk. But that won't be fair.

Can anyone help??

[Kelpie-i]

LoyalK9, we are currently rehabilitating a sheltie which sounds very similar to yours.

This little guy was a potential show dog that didn't make it. No socialisation skills, no confidence (only with other shelties) and is fearful of everything. Very sad.

Rehabilitation (to a degree) will be a very long road for this poor dog.

I'm sure there are Vet Behaviourists and/or good trainers in your area that can help you with your dog. Ring around at some Vets.

BTW, please don't allow your children to tease the dog...never!

Edited June 10, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Loyal K9]

Hi Kelpie-i,

Thats sounds very similar.

He was also a show dog but he got too tall.

I don't think the breeder knew about his anti social behaviour because they don't walk their dogs.

When they take them to a show they only meet mostly other Shelties.

Because I get home after dark (Winter) I've been walking my dogs in the dark.

He is not comfortable in the dark, he looks at me and behind/around him often.

Honestly, the main worry that I had before I got him was excessive barking that is quite common with Shelties. Aggressive Sheltie didn't even crossed my mind.

All other Shelties that I met at dog shows and local breeders were very friendly. They are known to be very friendly aren't they.

We were quite surprise with his behaviour when we got him. Looking back I should had returned him. I thought it was an easy thing to fix by simply socialising him. That is not the case.

Now he's been with us for 5 months I've grown attached to him.

We had him desexed but we didn't notice any difference.

I'll ring around few places/vets this weekend.

By the way, what are you doing with the Sheltie? Good luck with yours.

[Kelpie-i]

By the way, what are you doing with the Sheltie? Good luck with yours

He's not actually mine, he's a client's dog who purchased him from a breeder who assured him the dog was 'well behaved and fine' Fine for who I wonder?

We are desensitising him very slowly to new things and have put together a leadership program for the owner to follow as well. Desensitisation in this case is a very progressive process and must be done without introducing too many new things at once or for too long a period as he shuts down. It's only early days yet so the poor dog and owner have a long way to go yet.

We had him desexed but we didn't notice any difference

It's good that you desexed him but this will not change his fear issues unfortunately.

Taking on such a dog is a huge responsibility and requires lots of commitment on your part. I wish you all the luck with him and I am sure that with the right help, he will grow in confidence and you will start to enjoy him more.