Trust, Fear And Dogs

[Quickasyoucan]

We still seem to be discussing my approach to "aggressive" dogs. Can we please discuss the topic?

Corvus I think one of the problems that people have is that your posts sometimes seem contradictory, in this one you say you think fear diminishes trust, but in the socialisation thread you say exposing your dogs to situations where they might become slightly frightenened by another dog is okay because it will teach them how to behave around dogs

On the subject of corrections, I don't see how corrections unless they were really harsh would make a dog fearful, it might make them overly submissive (or not) but that's not the same thing as fear.

This is off topic, I have been thinking about fear a bit and some times I think I have been guilty of mistaking fear, ie "he's scared of x because he cowers" as submission.

Someone said about a dog the other day, oh he must have been abused because he cowers if you raise your hand, but I think I would cower if you raised a hand to me and you were massive, isn't it partially a natural reaction to show submission if you think you are likely to lose any potential battle??? I think a lot of dogs who haven't been abused would do it instinctively (not that I am suggesting we need to go out and test this theory).

Edited May 6, 2009 by Quickasyoucan

[m-j]

Agree, M-J. Reading that book had me envious of the ability autistic people have when it comes to their usually natural and often accurate 'connection' with animals a talent that, because of our functioning frontal cortex (isn't it?) we don't possess.

Yes apparently. My son has this ability, has had from a very early age. My boss at the kennels is amazed at how he can pick what dogs will be like even though he hasn't handled them and how much they like him instantly. He actually isn't madly keen on them (not like us), he likes dogs/animals, but can take or leave them. Sometimes I think we make things hard for ourselves by nutting every little thing out but that's part of the fun of dog training.

Just so my posts aren't completely off topic, I agree if we frighten our dog in some way in one situation if they can form some sort of an association with the previous fear to the new situation yes I believe they wil loose trust, ie fallout. This is the reason why I don't like puting pressure on my dogs as you say Corvus, dogs don't always show their fear/anxiety with big readily readable signals.

I also agree dogs are very forgiving, my goats showed me that, even moreso than my cats.

cheers

M-J

[Nekhbet]

havnt read most of this but just to say -

dont become preoccupied with 'I might frighten my dogs'. You should be able to do what you want when you want and the dogs cope, follow etc. If they do something wrong they SHOULD be corrected and shown the alternative. What method you use is up to what works for the dog.

Your dogs will trust you more if you guide them and lead them, not if you let them wallow in what they consider a comfort zone. Dogs will play you, they will even pull out behaviors that make you think you scare them because it made you stop last time - the dog trains you how to behave around them.

Most dogs are tougher then we give them credit for. I'm not advocating going whomping them with a stick any time soon but at the same time a little instabilty or fear is not a bad thing in dog training the problem is when handlers dont take the opportunity to use it to their advantage. Instead the dog goes off on a tangent or develops a whole other rediculous behavior.

[corvus]

Your dogs will trust you more if you guide them and lead them, not if you let them wallow in what they consider a comfort zone. Dogs will play you, they will even pull out behaviors that make you think you scare them because it made you stop last time - the dog trains you how to behave around them.

Most dogs are tougher then we give them credit for. I'm not advocating going whomping them with a stick any time soon but at the same time a little instabilty or fear is not a bad thing in dog training the problem is when handlers dont take the opportunity to use it to their advantage. Instead the dog goes off on a tangent or develops a whole other rediculous behavior.

I'm quoting this because it kind of explains something of where I'm coming from and the contradictions people are seeing in my posts. They do seem contradictory because fear is such a complex thing and every dog is different.

Here is an example: neither of my dogs were in the least bit comfortable in the lake/river as puppies. I spent a good 6 months of Penny's early life trying to coax her into the lake with me and putting her in situations where I was on one side of the shallow creek and she was on the other. Being a small corgi she didn't have to go real deep to have to swim. She was not comfortable with going through the very shallow creek to get to me and would whine. I did not let this go on for very long and would take the pressure off, but I kept exposing her to these situations until one day she got the courage to discover she could swim and now it's hard to keep her out of the water. She absolutely loves it.

Kivi has always been more frightened of getting in the water than Penny ever was. I started trying to coax him in the same way I did with Penny, but he wasn't keen. After I'd got to know him pretty well, it occurred to me that I didn't need to be quite as cautious with him as I had been with Penny. He is a much steadier personality and his fear of the water was a different nature to the fear Penny had. Even so, I didn't want to push him too far. I had him stepping into the water and standing there, but sometimes he didn't even want to get his toes wet. OH decided to push him physically - into the water. Kivi dug his heels in, but once his feet hit the water and he discovered it was only 5 cm deep he happily trotted off through the shallows. I don't think that approach would have been sensible with Penny, but Kivi sometimes needs a push and copes with it fine.

My thought is that you can't treat all fear the same in dogs or in any other animal. You can't say, all fear period diminishes trust, but nor can you say no fear diminishes trust. Fear is a continuum, not a static state. You can have a little fear or a lot. I challenge anyone to get through life having never seen their animal even a little afraid. It's the way you handle it that impacts on your animal's trust in you - or not.

So in my mind, if my dog is afraid that's when they need me most. They need me to reassure them, to be ready to take them away if need be, to show them there's nothing to be concerned about. The one I do depends on the level of fear being displayed and how it has progressed. If it is low level fear I just hover by them and watch closely. Most of the time, it never gets beyond that. Kivi was a big cry baby as a pup, but while I haven't always been there to protect him from something that's made him cry, I've always been there to make sure he's okay afterwards and he's grown out of it, mostly, with no ill effects. Things that used to make him cry don't bother him as much because he's learnt it's not as bad as he thought it was. Experiences are important, and sometimes that includes fearful experiences.

However, like PF mentioned, low level fear is a good way to teach avoidance or aggression, but not trust. So I would rather not be the source of fear. I would add, though, that flooding is sometimes very helpful in conquering a fear. Dog gets to a point where they realise the bad stuff hasn't happened yet and they are fine. What they were afraid of is not frightening after all.

[corvus]

Again, you are assuming that the other dog will act appropriately to Penny's signals that she is submitting, do you not realise that some dogs ignore those signals and attack anyway? It might sound very noble to say I trust my dog to sort it out, but the reality is that there are times you need to protect your dog, or she will get attacked. It is a matter of time from what I can decipher from your posts.

Would you like to actually read some of my posts, jdavis?

Again, yes, I know. It has happened to me. Would you like me to go back and quote it again? I put it in nice, short sentences with one thought per sentence. I thought it was pretty clear, but if you are still having troubles, let me know. Or maybe you just don't believe me. Or maybe I don't understand you. Seems we speak a different language.

Let me try another way of saying it. I have seen Penny frozen cowering beside me because a dog is bearing down on us that has no interest in her submission and would just like to grab her and shake her. Did I just stand there and say "There you go, Pen, you can sort that out"? Hardly. This is an emergency situation and I don't have a plan beyond somehow preventing that dog from getting to mine.

Perhaps you are talking about dogs that aren't charging up but dogs that have trotted or stalked up? If the dog hasn't outright charged there's always hope we can get out of it without a fight. I haven't yet seen this situation turn into a fight in the 13 years I've had Penny. And I've seen too many to count from all sorts of dubious-looking characters. What I have seen is a dog saunter up that had every intention of picking a fight regardless of what Penny is saying, which is usually "Oh god, that dog is going to kill me". This hasn't happened with a dog that hasn't been on leash, yet, so we've been safe. I watch Penny. She knows what's going to go down. If she looks scared and the dog is off leash, that's when I would try chasing the dog. I've never had to do it, though. It hasn't happened. Penny has taught me heaps. Since I started watching her I've learnt some of the more subtle hints that could help me.

I wouldn't trust Kivi to sort anything out and I won't until he has proved himself, and he won't get a chance to prove himself until I get surprised, basically. He's had one chance so far and he handled it perfectly. I do actually try not to give them chances to prove their skills, but inevitably it happens. I'd far rather they had those skills for that moment when it happens than to depend on my speed. IME, these things happen with very little chance to assess. One moment everything is fine and the next you have a snarling dog just seconds away. If I have time to err on the side of caution and move away, I sure as hell do exactly that.

[corvus]

So, she goes into avoidance, and is not always comfortable around other dogs, yet she's confident? From your posts it doesn't sound like she really enjoys socialising with other dogs and isn't interested in playing with them either. Why force her into situations where she has to interact with other dogs if all she wants to do is avoid them?

We are talking about her entire life span, here. She's been through loads of different levels of confidence with other dogs, and "other dogs" is not a single entity, it's hundreds of individuals that all require an individual approach. There are dogs she will always be confident with and dogs she will never be confident with. In general, she is confident and comfortable. She likes the dog park as long as I keep her clear of the play. She is quite happy to meet and greet older dogs, but doesn't like younger dogs anymore, so I keep her close when they are around. She will never be the social butterfly Kivi is, but that's not to say she doesn't like "other dogs". I think she is fantastically social considering what she's been through. She especially likes the old dogs. She always goes over to greet them and they come and greet her if Kivi is out of the way.

I think I see what you're trying to say. I say she avoids dubious dogs if she can, but confidently handles other dubious dogs if she can't? Why let her handle something she would try to avoid if she could?

It's hard to answer because we're talking about heaps of individual encounters and for most of them I think I was worried when I shouldn't have been. Like I said, I don't trust MY actions around tense dogs. I don't know what I decide to do might make them decide to do. Let me make something clear. The times we have a tense dog coming up to us, I look at Penny. If Penny is in avoidance, I do everything I can to keep the dog away from mine. If Penny is confident and meeting the dog's eyes, I let her handle it. Haven't been wrong yet. The times Penny says avoid I've been able to avoid them or I've had a charging dog on my hands. I can only say hypothetically what I'd do if a dog Penny wanted to avoid was unavoidable but wasn't charging because it hasn't happened yet. Hypothetically, I would body block it and chase it away. I can't make Penny confront something she wants to avoid. She will still avoid it and you're right, she can't be confident about something she wants to avoid.

Oh wait, I've just remembered this has happened once. There were two big dogs that were coming over and barking at us when we were walking on the street. Penny had her eyes away and was whining. It was all too tense for her. I don't think the dogs would have hurt her, but she didn't want to deal with them. I was with my mum and her two dogs at the time. We rushed the other dogs and they decided to bark from a distance and let us go.

[Are You Serious Jo]

My little eyes widened as I went "Wow, that was amazing." And from then on I paid a lot more attention to her rather than being wholly fixated on the other dog and trying to control the situation. If she can control the situation and I know her aims are to avoid conflict, then surely I'd be mad to try to come in and take care of it myself?

As I am not a mind reader I was responding to what you posted. I try to read your posts, and sometimes comment on the bits I understand. You wrote it