Staranais Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) Was wondering if anyone out there had any links to information on the Ca:P content of fresh meaty bones, and/or the bioavailability of calcium and phosphorus in fresh meaty bones (to dogs or humans)? Am trying to write an essay for vet school and so far can't find squat on this topic anywhere! I need actual scientific studies please, not just links to unreferenced websites or pro/anti raw feeding books. I'm especially interested in chicken necks/carcasses, but information on any type of bone would be very useful. Edited April 29, 2009 by Staranais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Sorry that I cannot help you, but thought you might be able to answer my question. I am trying to find out the percentages of carbohydrates, protein & fat that an average adult dog needs - I am thinking about switching food for the dogs, but wondering if there is an upper limit on the amount of protein that is "safe"??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 This is a link to "myths" about raw feeding, but looks like it is referenced to books/websites in part, so it might be a starting point for you. http://www.vonhauselordi.com/About.html This is cats, not dogs or humans...Pottenger cat study - but again, it might be a start. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Po...tenger.27s_cats My other thought is to perhaps contact All Natural Vet Care (www.naturalvet.com.au) and see if they can point you in the direction of some research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 Thanks for trying to help, pip. The first link referred me to Tom Lonsdale's book which apparently says that "raw food has the perfect balance of nutrients and minerals if fed as part of a prey model diet, eg a whole rabbit", which is pretty vague so isn't helpful in itself, but could be useful if he references actual studies on the amount of Ca and P found in various rmb in his book? I don't have access to this book, does anyone else? Pottenger's cats aren't very helpful, since they really just prove that cats need more nutrients than are found in cooked meats and milk alone, which is widely accepted by everyone nowadays. I can find good information on the Ca:P content of cooked bone powder, but that's likely to be quite different to the Ca:P content of the average chicken carcass or chicken neck. Plus can't find anything solid on how bioavailable the Ca or P in raw meaty bones is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 http://www.rci.com.au/en/tibs/feedstuff/otuoambm.pdf Not sure on this one - it is a paper on bone and bone meal for pigs - go to point 6 & have a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipsqueak Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 http://library.wur.nl/wda/abstracts/ab2831.html This is a study on the uptake of nutrients (based on a model?) in dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Monica Segal (from USA) had most of the foods analyzed for their Ca:p content (like turkey necks, chicken wings etc). She has a yahoo group called K9Kitchen, she also wrote a couple of books on dog nutrition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 Thanks heaps Pip and Laffi! You guys rock. I've signed up to the K9 kitchen group, will have a look around/post there later on today. The pig report says that approximately 8 - 12% of bone is Ca, with 4 - 6% being Ph. Another study I found indicated that approximately 36% of chicken neck is bone, and 50% of chicken back is bone, the rest presumably being chicken meat. (It's Felicetti, L., Kearney, C. C., Woodward, L., & Dierenfeld, E. S. (2008). Proportion of soft tissue in selected bone cuts fed primarily as enrichments to large carnivores. Zoo Biology, 27, 154 - 158, if anyone is interested.) The dissertation abstract reckons that canned dog foods had a availability for absorption for calcium of maximum 21% and phosphorus of maximum 44% - wouldn't be suprised if this is different for RMB, but this is a good start. Any more info is very welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Monica Segal (from USA) had most of the foods analyzed for their Ca:p content (like turkey necks, chicken wings etc). She has a yahoo group called K9Kitchen, she also wrote a couple of books on dog nutrition. Yep, MS book Optimal Nutrition would probably be your best bet: http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DN246 It's the newer one... K9 Kitchen also has some analysis of bones in it, it doesn't seem to be on dogwise any more though. She had the analysis of the bones done so that she knew the nutrient break down for formulating diets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) The dissertation abstract reckons that canned dog foods had a availability for absorption for calcium of maximum 21% and phosphorus of maximum 44% - wouldn't be suprised if this is different for RMB, but this is a good start. I remember them saying on list a while ago that dry foods often have a higher calcium content than the recommendations... there was a reason, but I can't remember it... so you should be able to get such info ETA: if you can't get your hands on those Monica Segal books and want to have a look, drop me a PM as I have them both... Edited May 1, 2009 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 This site has some really interesting info on dogfood, may be of use for you. www.dogfoodproject.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomas Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Was wondering if anyone out there had any links to information on the Ca:P content of fresh meaty bones, and/or the bioavailability of calcium and phosphorus in fresh meaty bones (to dogs or humans)? Am trying to write an essay for vet school and so far can't find squat on this topic anywhere! I need actual scientific studies please, not just links to unreferenced websites or pro/anti raw feeding books. I'm especially interested in chicken necks/carcasses, but information on any type of bone would be very useful. Scroll halfway down this page for a list of Ca:P in food,not so much raw meaty bones,though there is chicken backs etc,but will give you a good guide in any case http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html Tomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomas Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Was wondering if anyone out there had any links to information on the Ca:P content of fresh meaty bones, and/or the bioavailability of calcium and phosphorus in fresh meaty bones (to dogs or humans)? Am trying to write an essay for vet school and so far can't find squat on this topic anywhere! I need actual scientific studies please, not just links to unreferenced websites or pro/anti raw feeding books. I'm especially interested in chicken necks/carcasses, but information on any type of bone would be very useful. Also just found this one http://www.barfworld.com/html/barfworld/analysis.html Tomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 You could try contact companies that analyse food to see if they can point you in the right direction. I know someone who analyses food for clients, they tell her what they want analysed and what they are looking for and she does it, she works for a uni here in brissy but I'm sure there are other places that do this sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 (edited) Lots of reading for you here. It is a link to a range of articles written by Lew Olsen. She is thorough in her research and you will find lots of references in the articles: http://www.b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=newsletters This however, is a good article: Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertibrate Prey Fed in Zoos Edited May 2, 2009 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 4, 2009 Author Share Posted May 4, 2009 Lots of reading for you here. It is a link to a range of articles written by Lew Olsen. She is thorough in her research and you will find lots of references in the articles: http://www.b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=newslettersThis however, is a good article: Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertibrate Prey Fed in Zoos Thanks very much everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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