Reddii Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 The threadle and the serp are slightly different in terms of body position as well. Threadle your feet should be pointing back towards the dog and you are positioned prior to the obstacle, whereas with the serp you are postioned on the far upright of a jump (for example) looking back to your dog, but with your feet pointing in the direction of travel. It sounds to me like your puppies may not understand what you are asking for if they are stopping. Have you proofed the manouvre on jumps before moving to the tunnel? The best way to look at this is to think about the two entrances to the tunnel as jumps and then see if that makes a difference. Hope I've made sense. I've got a video somewhere of me getting this totally wrong, but it kind of gives you the idea of how it should be done. I'll see if I can dig it out. Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 My life would not be worth living! The Derrett method is the preferred method at my club. Sorry JulesP that your club is like that. Ronda has just been here and although I was not at the seminar this year I heard so many wonderful story's of her teachings. When my dog is old enough next year I will be at her seminar and not Gregg's. I hope in the future that a lot more people see her point of view in agility training. I am way out of my league here and I may be wrong but it could be possible to use a call to side for what you asked about originally. After all agility is not about systems it's about technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Yer dogs are fine over jumps. Just not going into the tunnel. Wish the dogs could just say what the problem is! Have I driven you all nuts yet?? A tip for people - don't try this line of debate at dog school - it is not appreciated!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 I do actually really like the Derrett system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 This is the one - not the one I was originally thinking of, but it shows the manouvre twice (without a tunnel). It doesn't really matter if it is a tunnel or another obstacle though, the theory is the same. The best place to see it is where she comes out of the tunnel and has to be called off the jump and then into the next tunnel, but it is also the same thing where she goes from the green jump and then in between the two jumps and over the red jump. I actually got it right! Hope that helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Sorry JulesP that your club is like that. Ronda has just been here and although I was not at the seminar this year I heard so many wonderful story's of her teachings. When my dog is old enough next year I will be at her seminar and not Gregg's. I hope in the future that a lot more people see her point of view in agility training. Can I ask why you think Ronda's teachings are so much better than Derrett's system? Legit question - I have no idea of her work and am genuinely interested. That said, I dunno whether I would suggest someone change their entire handling technique based around a tunnel issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) Can I ask why you think Ronda's teachings are so much better than Derrett's system? Legit question - I have no idea of her work and am genuinely interested. That said, I dunno whether I would suggest someone change their entire handling technique based around a tunnel issue. Good question - I would also like to know just out of curiousity, I certainly don't want to start a debate about handling systems as there has been enough 'Derrett trashing' on some forums already from what I've seen. I always think it's good if people go to as many seminars as possible so they can make an informed decision about what will suit them and their dogs. No 'right' or 'wrong' handling systems. From what I have seen I think it's a bit like whether your 'right or left' brain is dominant. One system seems to make more sense to some people and the other seems to make more sense to others. The think that I dislike the most is the way it seems to be viewed as an 'us and them' issue by many. I've clocked up 6 different OS presenters now and can honestly say that Greg and Laura (and Susan) were the best by an absloute mile in respect to what makes sense to me. (and that's not to say I didn't learn anything from the others - all were valuable in different ways.) Agree with Jess that I wouldn't change my handling system based on a tunnel issue either. And Jess, I would never say you were 'wrong' to handle discriminations with a shoulder pull. (You and Darcy regularly kick my butt in Masters Jumping and I am in awe of her speed! )If I am far enough ahead I sometimes use a shoulder pull on tunnel discriminations too, but if not ahead enough, I believe it can sometimes turn into a flick - but you know I am a 'purist' when it comes to trying to run this system. (substitute stubborn, pig headed addict if you like, I can live with it . ) Have also seen a lot of overuse of threadle arms where they weren't really necessary, not to mention threadle arms used to change lines where there is not a 'redirect' following the line change. I am also a big believer in 'if it works for your dog and you are happy with it, go for it.' Jules, just out of curiousity, if your dog has no trouble with the serpentine cue, try substituting the 3rd jump in a serpentine with a tunnel and see what happens. Would give them an 'easier' scenario of come to my threadle arm, then redirect back into tunnel entrance. Edited April 29, 2009 by kelpiechick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Jules, just out of curiousity, if your dog has no trouble with the serpentine cue, try substituting the 3rd jump in a serpentine with a tunnel and see what happens. Would give them an 'easier' scenario of come to my threadle arm, then redirect back into tunnel entrance. I think this would be a good way to figure out whether the tunnel is the issue Moreso if you change which end of the tunnel you send them to. I don't think this needs to be Derrett vs other, if she is happy with Derrett, this issue is not big enough to change the whole of how she handles. Whatever you are comfortable with. And I WAS at the recent Ronda Carter seminar It ROCKED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) Hope you don't mind me using this video as an example Reddii http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf8AWQVol00...re=channel_page Jules can you do the tunnel as shown at :56 - :59? That is what I mean. Edited April 29, 2009 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 Didn't have a problem this morning. Sent her in on the right arm a couple of times. Did the threadle maneuver but made sure that I moved over to the right enough that my arm was directly pointing to the tunnel. Then moved back to the middle and in she went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippi Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Just my opinion FWIW..... Both dogs come in ok with the threadle arm. It is the send after that is causing issues. Both dogs are going to the entrance of the tunnel and stopping. I can only assume that it is because I am not supporting the movement into the tunnel. I am standing in the middle of the 2 entrances. Send to the left entrance from there is fine. Threadle arm they come in, I ask to go to the right entrance and they don't seem to want to go in. Both are novice dogs. This I think is where the problem lies - your position. If your dogs are responding to the threadle arm then the problem is clearly after that. If you are trying to get the dog to pull off the left tunnel entrance and then go to the right tunnel entrance then you should not be standing in the middle of the 2 entrances. You should be on the move heading just to the right of the right side entrance. Your feet and shoulders should be supporting this direction and (after you have brought your threadle arm down) you left arm should also be supporting where you want the dog to go. Didn't have a problem this morning. Sent her in on the right arm a couple of times. Did the threadle maneuver but made sure that I moved over to the right enough that my arm was directly pointing to the tunnel. Then moved back to the middle and in she went. There ya go.... well done. I am a bit confused though as to why you would move back to the middle before the dog has committed to the correct entrance. It is a bit difficult making judgements without being able to see precisely what you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 There ya go.... well done. I am a bit confused though as to why you would move back to the middle before the dog has committed to the correct entrance. It is a bit difficult making judgements without being able to see precisely what you are doing. I didn't move back to the middle before the dog had committed, I sent from the middle. As in I sent from near the right side of the tunnel and then I moved to a middle position and sent from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Sorry JulesP that your club is like that. Ronda has just been here and although I was not at the seminar this year I heard so many wonderful story's of her teachings. When my dog is old enough next year I will be at her seminar and not Gregg's. I hope in the future that a lot more people see her point of view in agility training. Can I ask why you think Ronda's teachings are so much better than Derrett's system? Legit question - I have no idea of her work and am genuinely interested. That said, I dunno whether I would suggest someone change their entire handling technique based around a tunnel issue. Sorry if what I said came across the wrong way, I was not suggesting she change her whole handling system. The reason I prefer Ronda's techniques is that a lot of her stuff causes less pressure on the dogs joints especially her call to side maneuver and they can read your signals a lot earlier and more clearly from the beginning. I have watched quite a few of Gregg's videos and find a lot of his systems can confuse a dog very easily. I have also seen this happen to people using his system in trials. I also think that you can get a lot of good techniques from different trainers and not just sticking to the one system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddii Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Hope you don't mind me using this video as an example Reddii http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf8AWQVol00...re=channel_page Jules can you do the tunnel as shown at :56 - :59? That is what I mean. ROFLMAO.....not one of our finest moments in sport!! At least we are improving!! Not a hassle, that's why I put them up there so I can look back and remember where we came from as the puppies grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 lol at Reddii! Your videos are nice and clear. to the photographer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 The reason I prefer Ronda's techniques is that a lot of her stuff causes less pressure on the dogs joints especially her call to side maneuver and they can read your signals a lot earlier and more clearly from the beginning. I have watched quite a few of Gregg's videos and find a lot of his systems can confuse a dog very easily. I have also seen this happen to people using his system in trials. I also think that you can get a lot of good techniques from different trainers and not just sticking to the one system. OMG - Another fallacy that seems to be continually promoted by those not using or understanding Derrett (Greg with one g) system. If the system is run correctly, dogs get the information in plenty of time not to cause stress on their joints. All turns are cued with both positional cues (my postion in relation to the upcoming obstacle is a signal for you to understand where you are going next) and deceleration (eg: I am slowing down - signal for you to collect because a turn is coming up. And the 'correct' timing of giving these positional cues is before dog takes off for previous jump. Why on earth would you need to be any earlier than that ? Seems more logical for me that my dog would understand ' when you turn, I turn' rather than 'when you turn I will continue going straight and then I will turn'. If the dog is getting the information late due to sloppy timing and handling (guilty as charged at times I am sure!) then it's hardly fair to blame a system for that. Maybe you have been watching the wrong people - it's a pity to judge a system by those who don't always execute it correctly. Once trained, it shouldn't confuse dogs at all as it is one of the only consistent systems where one cue always equals one behaviour only, every time. My dogs actually seem to like that. Unlike some other systems where one cue can mean several different things. And I'm not sure how a lead out pivot, for example, could put more stress on a dog's joints than recall to side. I'm sure Ronda has some terrific stuff to offer too and if it suits people and their dogs that's great. Agility would be pretty boring if we all handled courses like clones. But I'm not sure where all these misconceptions keep coming from? Hopefully not from those running other systems who feel the need to think that theirs is the 'best.' There doesn't have to be a 'best' if you are happy with how you decide to handle. But I have never seen or heard so many incorrect assumptions about the Derrett system as any other system and it amazes me. Rarely hear the Derrett handlers (not the ones I know anyway) rubbishing APHS system and making blanket comments about it when they haven't run it, based on listening to what others say and watching a couple of videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippi Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 There ya go.... well done. I am a bit confused though as to why you would move back to the middle before the dog has committed to the correct entrance. It is a bit difficult making judgements without being able to see precisely what you are doing. I didn't move back to the middle before the dog had committed, I sent from the middle. As in I sent from near the right side of the tunnel and then I moved to a middle position and sent from there. Huh???? Sorry you've lost me. I guess its one of those things you need to see. KC.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Yep - agree with Laffi and Kavik. BTW Laffi - I really liked that idea of imagining there was no wrong entry - to get the correct line for the right hand tunnel entry. Must try that - I have trouble with off-entries - I can get the RFP/baulkk/threadle arm - bit, but then have trouble setting the correct line for the left arm send. LOL - trust me it works Tassie. Since our seminar in Jan *most* of our tunnels have been much smoother. It's so much better to think of them in terms of front crosses rather than call offs/ distractions etc My life would not be worth living! The Derrett method is the preferred method at my club. If you're still confused talk to me on Monday . I don't think the club is THAT set on Derrett - there are people who still use other methods at the club Kelpiechick - I totally agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 Pippi you asked why I would move back to the middle. I didn't move back to the middle, I sent from the middle. No movement occurred. Not confused LP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) Pippi you asked why I would move back to the middle. I didn't move back to the middle, I sent from the middle. No movement occurred. Not confused LP so are you doing a lead out to get to the middle of the tunnel?! sorry I am understanding less and less the point of this exercise btw are you facing the dog or the tunnel when you are standing in the middle? Edited April 30, 2009 by laffi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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