JulesP Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 This will be easy to explain...not! Ok you have a horseshoe shaped tunnel. You have come from the left. The dog needs to go into the right hand side of the tunnel. You use a threadle arm not a front cross. Left arm brings in, right arm sends into the tunnel. Is that right? If that is right do you aim to have the dog come to your right hand side with the threadle?? Or is the dog still more on the left when you send. Neither dog will send from the right arm when they are more on the left. Which might be how it should be!! Does that make sense at all?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 This will be easy to explain...not! Ok you have a horseshoe shaped tunnel. You have come from the left. The dog needs to go into the right hand side of the tunnel. You use a threadle arm not a front cross. Left arm brings in, right arm sends into the tunnel. Is that right? If that is right do you aim to have the dog come to your right hand side with the threadle?? Or is the dog still more on the left when you send. Neither dog will send from the right arm when they are more on the left. Which might be how it should be!! Does that make sense at all?? where is the dog on your left or right? anyway you use the threadle to avoid going to the wrong entry, is that correct? so for a second imagine there is no wrong entry, there is only one, correct entry; which arm do you use to direct the dog to that correct entry?: that's the arm you should use to send the dog to the runnel threadle arm will be then the opposite arm, that you use to redirect the dog from the wrong entry does it make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Dog is on left. The threadle arm has successfully called the dog away from the left tunnel entrance and towards me. I then lift right arm to send into right side of tunnel and both dogs are going ummm what? Is it because the dogs need to be further on my right, for the right arm to take effect? If I do a front cross I don't have the problem. Think it could also be body/shoulder position??? This is when border collies aren't easy to train as they expect you to do it right! They have obviously been watching Derrett videos when I am not around as I think they have a better grasp of it then me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I'll have a shot though I am not using Derrett, so it may be completely wrong At the moment dog is on left side. So threadle arm should be right arm? and then send to tunnel with left arm again? (then I presume you would have to do a cross at the tunnel) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 I don't know why but it feels really clumsy trying to get them in the right hand side of the tunnel with my left arm. I have to be in the wrong position, facing the wrong way of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Have you sent them in the right side of tunnel from left hand before? To do a rear cross at tunnel or something? If not, maybe practice that first. I felt very awkward first time I tried, and it took a couple of goes before Kaos would go in the tunnel that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Yep - agree with Laffi and Kavik. BTW Laffi - I really liked that idea of imagining there was no wrong entry - to get the correct line for the right hand tunnel entry. Must try that - I have trouble with off-entries - I can get the RFP/baulkk/threadle arm - bit, but then have trouble setting the correct line for the left arm send. As I understand it, you hold the threadle arm (right arm in this case) just long enough to get the dog past the worong entry, and then resume the left arm and continue to the tunnel - so thinking about it, it really is just a threadle manoeuvre, isn't it. The Derretts call the off arm the 'evil arm' - change of arm means change of sides - but if you used the off arm (right in this case) to send to the tunnel, you'd be signalling, but actually wanting, a change of sides. Sorry - I've probably confused people again - just do what Laffi and Kavik said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 I think it is the correct line that I am having problems with. I want to send them from my right side so feel weird sending from the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I think it is the correct line that I am having problems with. I want to send them from my right side so feel weird sending from the left. If the dog is on your left why do you want to send from the right? are you executing a turn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 It just feels weird sending from the left into the right hand side of the tunnel! My preference would be to do a front cross to get them on the right side and send from there. When they are on the right I feel like I am sending them straight. When they are on the left I feel like they are flicking away. It is all a feel thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah L Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 It just feels weird sending from the left into the right hand side of the tunnel! My preference would be to do a front cross to get them on the right side and send from there. When they are on the right I feel like I am sending them straight. When they are on the left I feel like they are flicking away. It is all a feel thing! JulesP have you ever considered using any Ronda Carter training instead of Gregg Derret, just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 My life would not be worth living! The Derrett method is the preferred method at my club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) You could possibly use a Front Cross sometimes for a tunnel discrimination as it is often a definite turn (change of side) for your dog - but it would not be as efficient as using a threadle arm in most cases. If you are able to, it is a good idea to run the sequence both ways and take note of your dog's line each time. Also, if you master the sequence using a front cross, the threadle arm substitution may be easier for you. (Although a front cross may also be creating a flick, depending on where you actually are in relation to the tunnel entrance you want) When you are first learning to use this (both you and your dog) I agree that it feels a little clumsy - the timing can also be difficult, holding the threadle arm until you are sure your dog is past the plane of the incorrect tunnel entrance before turning back and signalling with the original arm but the beauty of this move is that once your dog truly understands what your threadle arm is signalling as you approach a tunnel - and they do come to understand as in this system one body cue means one thing only - then it is very quick to perform, therefore creating a faster line to the tunnel than the 'S' shaped line a front cross will give you. The other things that make using a front cross more difficult here is that most people seem to forget the diagonal line when heading to a tunnel and will perform the front cross on a straight line - also for a good front cross in the Derrett system, you would need to be right up near the tunnel entrance to give positional cue to the dog, so that would mean you would have to be able to get a fair bit ahead. (I find this easier on a course with a lot of turns rather than on a straight run to the tunnel. It can be hard enough to be that little bit ahead enough to use a threadle arm at times. I have also trained tunnel discrimination with a rear cross for those times I can't get there!) Remember with an inexperienced dog you will need to literally plant your feet and hold the threadle arm for what seems like ages - don't forget to reward for actually coming to your arm at first. The hardest thing is the 'standing still' that a green dog needs- hard not the actually start moving backwards at first. There is still a big difference between my novice and masters kelpies in how quick I can perform this - baby dog needs a lot more support, older dog understands he is to take particular tunnel entrance as soon as my shoulders start to move with arm coming across - yet timing is still crucial as I have on occasion turned back extremely quickly and pulled him back to the incorrect tunnel entrance. Crappy handler ! I'm still having a bit of trouble visualising where you are in relation to the tunnel entrance from your example (no wonder I forget courses!) so apologies if I've misinterpreted. If you start with your dog on your left you would be origianlly directing with left hand, right hand would come across for threadle arm signal, then original (left) hand would send to the tunnel. Another thing I would be thinking about in a course situation is what side I wanted to be on after the dog comes out of the tunnel. Don't forget using a front cross will give you a side change before tunnel, but threadle arm won't. There may be the occasional time when using a front cross does become more efficient based on where you are going next but I think this would be rare. Hope this makes sense, almost confused myself reading it back but I know what I mean. And it is a really clear system for the dogs once the handlers have figured it out...... probably still figuring in my case. Edited April 29, 2009 by kelpiechick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Both dogs come in ok with the threadle arm. It is the send after that is causing issues. Both dogs are going to the entrance of the tunnel and stopping. I can only assume that it is because I am not supporting the movement into the tunnel. I am standing in the middle of the 2 entrances. Send to the left entrance from there is fine. Threadle arm they come in, I ask to go to the right entrance and they don't seem to want to go in. Both are novice dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Ignoring the threadle arm for a minute, have you sent them in the right end of tunnel with left arm before? Like having them on your left with right tunnel entrance straight ahead (so tunnel is turning away from you) and sending them in like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 That is what they don't like. Left arm to right side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Using a threadle arm has 2 parts - give the signal, dog knows to come to that hand. 2nd part, is the turning back that you mention they are having trouble with. Best explanation for teaching this I have seen is on SG's One Jump DVD - Serpentine. In a nutshell, dog needs to understand it is one move with 2 parts. Right from the beginning I never teach my dog the 'come to threadle arm' part without then changing line and sending back again. I might break it down and reward many times for coming to threadle arm but always do the 2nd part afterwards. This is where the GD system creates confusion in those who don't use it as they see the threadle arm as an inconsistency. If you think of it as being the 1st part of a 2 part signal - where one part always follows the other no matter what, then it makes sense. Sounds as if your dogs haven't quite got the 2 parts yet which is pretty normal in a novice dog. Also, if you have rewarded a lot for pulling off the tunnel they may be just a little unsure about whether or not they are actually meant to take it - all common for novice dogs. I would be making sure I had a pretty good understanding of serpentine first, as once they understand that there are actually 2 parts in the sequence, it will help your tunnel discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Don't have the problem doing serpentines over jumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) I would scrap the threadle move for the moment, and work on getting them comfortable going in through the right side of the tunnel from your left side. Not standing in the middle of the tunnel, but make it easier by standing in line with the tunnel entrance, as if you are running that way anyway, in a straight line to make it easier. left entrance/middle/right entrance .................................... Dog/You Edited April 29, 2009 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J... Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 My understanding of the threadle arm, aside from threadles, that it came into play where there was a potential for a "question" from my dog. I don't know if it is necessarily "correct", and KC - feel free to correct me here, but I use my shoulders for tunnel discriminations these days and have never really used the threadle arm for tunnel entrances. I figure if I'm clear enough with my shoulders then there is no "question". If we get it wrong, then I wasn't clear enough early enough, or I made the stupid mistake of trying to beat my dog to a tunnel entrance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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