Bad Nightmares?

[Elfin]

Hello

I am new to the forum and hoping for some advice.

We got our 18 week old puppy 5 weeks ago. She was been fantastic in every way - happy, outgoing, quick to learn, easy to house train, friendly to everyone she meets and gets along wonderfully with other animals, including our two other older dogs and our cat.

The only concern we have is now really starting to worry us, as it is getting worse. She will wake very suddenly and jump up - barking and snarling in a VERY aggressive manner as though she has had a terrible nightmare, and then instantly flop back down and be fast asleep again. It is all over in about 2-3 seconds and is quite frightening to watch.

The "aggression" seems to be directed at the nearest living thing, which is normally one of the older dogs, who just look at her. Yesterday she was fast asleep on the back seat of the car (wearing a car-harness), then suddenly jumped up and nearly flew into the front seat snarling and snapping at me (driving!) and then fell down fast asleep again. It was really scary.

I have had her to a vet and a chiropractor and they can find nothing wrong with her.

Any ideas?

Thank you in advance for your advice.

[joelle]

Hi Elfin,

the only thing I could suggest is researching if anything happened to her prior to you getting her. 13 weeks old is time enough for a young pup to have had really bad experience that will leave a fear imprint, hopefully you can find out what it is and take measures to help?? What do you know about her early weeks? most pups are homed at 8 weeks, I wonder where she was from 8 - 13 weeks?

Or is something maybe scaring her and waking her suddenly?

sorry not much help - good luck

[Elfin]

Hi joelle and thank you for your reply.

We had the pup "ordered" from the breeder but he was waiting to see which one of the two girls he wanted to keep for himself. The rest of the litter were sold at 8-9 weeks.

I am quite confident that our girl had a great start to life - the litter was born and raised inside until 6-ish weeks and then placed outside with their mother into the kennel complex with lots of human contact. The set-up is great. We saw the litter several times between when they were born and when we collected the pup.

The reason we chose this breeder is because of his dogs' temperaments. We got a retired show dog from him (one of my older dogs) when she was 3 years old and she has the most wonderful temperament.

[kyliegirl]

sounds like a sleep disorder where the animal acts out its dreams.

heres some info in it

All sleep disorders are inconvenient and often debilitating because we need sleep to function properly. REM Sleep Behavior Disorder, however, is one of the most difficult

sleep disorders to live with. About 25% of your total sleep is composed of REM sleep, which is usually the time when you dream and when your brain is most active. REM stands for "rapid-eye movement" because the eyes are often active during REM and most people experience vivid dreams during this stage of sleep.

One of the most telling signs of REM sleep is a muscle paralysis that comes over the body, which is nonexistent in patients with REM Sleep Behavior Disorder. This disorder causes the patient to "act out" their dreams during REM sleep, which can often result in harm to the patient or to others sleeping in the same bed. The brain is still as active as ever and the dreams are just as vivid, but the patient acts as though he or she is actually "in" the dream, and the muscles in the body respond to fear, anger, apprehension and anxiety as though the patient were actually experiencing the dream in reality.

[Elfin]

Hello kyliegirl and thank you for your reply.

I have been reading all about REM Sleep Behaviour Disorder (google is my friend!) and it is quite frightening! It sounds very like what our pup does.

When I tried to research treatment, every site suggested medication. I would like to avoid medication, but will try it as a last resort.

My next question is, does anyone have experience with the Disorder in dogs? Would seeing a behaviourist be of any assistance? Any advice, ideas or stories would be appreciated.

Meanwhile, I shall keep googling!

Thank you again.

[periannath]

Hi Elfin,

You don't mention the breed of your puppy but in Bull Terriers and Minis we call it Sudden Onset Aggression . It is quite common in the USA. I haven't heard of a case here but it may be well out there. Here is a link you may find useful. Plenty of people with other breeds contribute to this list. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/BullTer...ical_disorders/

I stayed with a breeder in the USA with a bitch who suffered from SOA some years ago. It can be very alarming indeed and no doubt very frightening and dangerous in the car.I hope you can find some help from this list.

All the best.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

this seems really odd for an 18 week old pup. did the vet run tests to rule out any neurological problems or epilepsy?

does this happen every time she sleeps? what is the frequency of the "nightmares?

[Elfin]

Hi periannath and Jaxx'sBuddy and thank you for your replies.

She is not a Bull Terrier (but we luuuurve Bullies!), so hopefully that rules out Sudden Onset Aggression.

The vet said she shows no signs of neurological defects and that epilepsy presents differently. When she is awake, she is completely normal. She doesn't seem to remember, or to be upset by the "episodes".

The vet spoke to a veterinary neurology specialist about her today. He immediately suggested REM Sleep Behaviour Disorder, (well done, kyliegirl, you should be a veterinary specialist!) and recommended medication. (The same medication as used in humans with the disorder) Apparently the disorder is poorly documented in dogs, and he was fascinated. He asked if we could get a video of the behaviour, but as she only does it for 2-3 seconds at a time and only about once a day, it will be very difficult.

Once again, we would love to avoid medication, and are open to any suggestions.

(And how do I change the topic sub-title to make it more relevant?!)

Edited April 29, 2009 by Elfin

[Teebs]

Good luck with it

My Bully has a thing that if woken suddenly he will bark and growl and snap. Has been doing it since he was a puppy.

no one bugs him while he is asleep, even the cats know to stay away!

[periannath]

Hi Elfin,

The bitch I met didn't go back to sleep again ,she seemed confused and embarrassed by her behaviour afterwards. She was an older girl by then and I didn't think to ask if it manifested differently as a pup.I think if she had been mine I would have made sure she was in a crate for naps and sleep time just to ensure no other dogs or people were hurt accidently and it would have been accidently.She clearly had no idea what she was doing or who her anger was directed at. Crating for sleeping might be something for you to consider until you get it sorted out.Maybe it would help her feel more secure as well?

Jaxx'sBuddy you are on the money with your suggestion checking for epilepsy with bullies anyway, nearly all of them with SOA or OCD problems have abnormal brain scans and are described as having partial seizures.These behaviours often start as their hormones start to kick in.

Teebs, I have one little madam here that will growl and snap if another dog touches her roughly while she is asleep. She never does it to me, I can shove her over on the lounge and she instantly realises it is me and does nothing. Is your bully more like that? A 'don't you dare disturb me while I'm sleeping' thing? SOA is very different to this.

[sas]

Would some sort of stress release remedy say an hour before bed be worth a go?

I pesonaly reccomend the Stress Relief one from here: http://www.healwithease.com/homoeopathic-p...vidual-remedies

Also as another poster mentioned, try crate training so pup feels safe when sleeping.

Edited April 29, 2009 by sas

[poochmad]

Agree with others' posts...also would like to add, make sure there is room around her so no one accidently gets bitten. Especially ensure that no one approaches her while she's sleeping as well as ensuring that no children go near either.

Definitely would also give the crate a go, hopefully that will help her reaction.

[Elfin]

Thank you to everyone that has taken the time to respond, especially sas and kyliegirl who sent me very helpful PMs.

The little girl is doing very well (she is not so little, though!

We started giving her a little Rescue Remedy when she looked like she was about to take herself to bed, and it seems to have helped. Even at the times we forget to do it, she is not having the episodes quite so often and they are much less "severe". She just lefts her head, barks once or twice and then goes back to sleep.

She has slept in a crate from the first day we got her, and always seemed to do it less when asleep in there, and now never does it when sleeping in her crate.

In every other way, she has been fantastic, and even got Opposite Sex Baby Puppy at our Specialty last week! We were soooo proud!

Thank you all again, we appreciate the incredible collective knowledge of this forum.

[all that glitters]

Glad all is well! My girl has vocal/active dreams also...not that bad, but she YIPS and YAPS and whines and GROWLS and her little feet flicker lol.. Im not sure if its a good or bad dream sometimes!

[Alyosha]

I have seen a series of videos on youtube of a yellow lab doing this. It's like having night terrors or a sleepwalking disorder. My girl used to dream vividly, kicking and yelping, but she grew out of it. My vet recommends lavender oil in a spray bottle, which can be sprayed on their coat - especially under their throat area - lightly, or on their bedding to aid in relaxation.

Maybe it's a developmental thing. Isn't sleepwalking generally linked to a problem with the REM sleep, where the neuro pathways to the motion parts of the brain don't shut off properly resulting in the body reacting to the dream? Maybe as she grows and her brain develops it will improve.

Edit for link to youtube video:

Edited May 15, 2009 by Nattylou