Feeding Raw Without Veges?

[Stitch]

Following on from the Skin Problems thread I was wondering what you feed if you don't feed veges and grains to ensure that the dog is getting a balanced meal?

I feed a mixture of minced chicken frames, minced offal, VAN, eggs, sardines, etc. to our Dobe who has terrible skin problems. I am thinking now that I will take away the VAN but I am wondering if it is going to be balanced enough?? Perhaps I will need to add a vitamin and mineral supplement? What do you think?

[felix]

Yes, it is called prey model diet.

What you described would pretty mush fit this model. Many people use it, some actually swear by it.

IMHO, that is the best way to go.

[puggy_puggy]

Yes, it is called prey model diet.

:p

Stitch if you want to feed this way get rid of the Van and add more raw meaty bones that your dog can consume fully.

[4 Paws]

I like to add a supplement if I'm feeding raw just to make sure,maybe I'm just a worry wart :p

It's a blend of natural selenium, Omegas 3 & 6, amino & fatty acids, vitamins & minerals. For soft, shiny coat & skin rejuvenation; improved flexibility & mobility of older dogs; gives puppies a great start in life with a natural supplement.

[Cavandra]

All vitamins & minerals are contained in the marrow of raw bones, and the yolks of raw eggs, offal is a must...dogs do not require a "balanced" diet modelled off human food, as they are carnivores, and opportunists, who will eat anything to survive, but things like grains & veg are not things they eat in the wild .They crop grasses & wild herbs occassionally, they may eat the odd fallen over-ripe fruits/berries, and rummage garbage bins & camp sites etc to fulfil their hunger, but they do not need it!

It is a myth that they eat the intestines of their prey that contain fruits & veg matter...they eat everything but that, and rarely will eat the intestines.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Cavandra

[Stitch]

That's really interesting, thanks for all the info.

One problem I can see though, he doesn't eat bones other than chicken frames. Anything else he burys and my OH gets very annoyed to find big holes in his garden.

Do you think it will still be OK with chicken frames + the other stuff minus the VAN?

[Golden Rules]

That's really interesting, thanks for all the info.

One problem I can see though, he doesn't eat bones other than chicken frames. Anything else he burys and my OH gets very annoyed to find big holes in his garden.

Do you think it will still be OK with chicken frames + the other stuff minus the VAN?

Yes, mine get mostly chicken frames anyway with only the occasional bigger bone, and they are a picture of health (when groomed properly :p )

You could always try a meatier bone so he eats the meat off it, and then take the bone when finished to prevent him from burying it.

[Cavandra]

That's really interesting, thanks for all the info.

One problem I can see though, he doesn't eat bones other than chicken frames. Anything else he burys and my OH gets very annoyed to find big holes in his garden.

Do you think it will still be OK with chicken frames + the other stuff minus the VAN?

It is always best to feed in a confined space, so that you know what they have eaten, & that they are supervised in case of accidents......If he doesnt eat it in 10 minutes, take it away, he will eat when it suits you when you make him hungry enough. Mine all have their own crates for feed times.

[puggy_puggy]

One problem I can see though, he doesn't eat bones other than chicken frames. Anything else he burys and my OH gets very annoyed to find big holes in his garden.

What sort of bones are you feeding? I am presuming that they are to hard for him to totally munch up. Stick to non weightbearing bones.

[KitKat]

The only time my boys have done well on raw foods was when it was purely raw meaty bones - no vegies, no grains, nothing else. Bones would include pig feet, lamb bones, beef bones, chicken frames, turkey necks, chicken pieces, turkey pieces etc - but that would be it - frozen or defrosted depending on how lazy i was feeling

[Tiggy]

You can try stuffing the chicken frames with chunks of meat/offal so it's a meatier meal.

[Stitch]

Thanks for the reminder - I can't believe I didn't think of feeding him in one of the dog runs.

I used to feed all sorts of bones but got into terrible trouble with the OH when Dobe started burying them in the garden for later!!

His favourites are the leg bones that have been sawed lengthwise to reveal all the lovely marrow!!

It's definitely going to be a 'prey' diet for him now though and hopefully I will see an improvement in his skin.

He has just finished the last lot of antibiotics and is looking good but he gets that smell back very quickly. It will be Malaseb bath day for him today!!

[Kirislin]

All vitamins & minerals are contained in the marrow of raw bones, and the yolks of raw eggs, offal is a must...dogs do not require a "balanced" diet modelled off human food, as they are carnivores, and opportunists, who will eat anything to survive, but things like grains & veg are not things they eat in the wild .They crop grasses & wild herbs occassionally, they may eat the odd fallen over-ripe fruits/berries, and rummage garbage bins & camp sites etc to fulfil their hunger, but they do not need it!

It is a myth that they eat the intestines of their prey that contain fruits & veg matter...they eat everything but that, and rarely will eat the intestines.

My dogs ate the intestines when they killed a bunny, actually, they ate everything, skin and all. Within a couple of hours you'd never have known the bunny existed, there was absolutely nothing left. The next day they did lots of rabbit felt poo.

they also love eating horse poo.

[Nekhbet]

stitch have you checked if your dobe is reacting to a certain protein source? Some dogs have problems with certain meats.

Marrow bones offer nothing but a lot of fat and wear down the teeth, especially the sliced ones thats probably where he's getting his bone burying habit as well.

Cavandra dogs will eat intestines of their prey and not all vitamins and minerals are in marrow. Yes there may be some but not always in good enough quantities for the dog hence sometimes you see dogs picking at fruit, veges, dirt, stones, other animal faeces etc.

[Stitch]

No, I haven't checked re the protein source but I thought I would stop with the VAN as my first port of call.

Dobe eats absolutely anything and is a big boy.

He hasn't had marrow bones for ages now because of the garden thing so I know that isn't the problem. You are quite right, marrow = fat but like us, they like the fat best. It has to be something he gets regularly that is why I am hoping that the removal of the VAN from the diet will help.

He gets minced chicken frames with offal mixed in, sardines, eggs, yoghurt in fact anything that I have at the time plus whole frames (he doesn't bury them) but the basis is the minced frames with offal plus the VAN.

I have a vitamin and mineral powder that I can mix in.

If he is allergic to chicken then I am going to be in big trouble though!!

Edited April 27, 2009 by STITCH

[Nekhbet]

with problems like skin etc remember sometimes the effects of the offending substance can long outlast the exposure - If I feed my rotty eagle pack his skin is shitty for weeks even though he goes back onto a better food.

I would be using exclusive protein sources for a few weeks at a time to see if maybe he is allergic to a meat type or some offal. My dogs were very ill from VAN so I never use it. If your dog needs a bit of fibre then you can add bran to any mince to help with passing.

[Stitch]

That's interesting about the Eagle Pack. I feed that to my smaller dogs but haven't had any adverse reactions to it. I thought it was one of the better dry dog foods?????

I fed VAN + to my smaller dogs for years and always had good results but recently I found that the puppies I am running on at the moment and some of the older dogs were continually getting stomach and gut problems so I decided to stop feeding raw. For several months now I have been feeding them Eagle Pack + boiled chicken and juices and they are doing so much better and have put on condition. Perhaps it was the VAN??? although I was blaming it on the raw minced chicken. I buy it from a butcher but I sometimes think that butchers don't really care much about meat that is destined for pets - may be wrong but thats how it appeared to me. The Dobe on the other hand has always had a caste iron stomach and rarely gets any gut problems.

Regarding the protein source, I think I will just stick to chicken only for about 6 weeks with the Dobe and see what happens.

[puggy_puggy]

His favourites are the leg bones that have been sawed lengthwise to reveal all the lovely marrow!!

Weight bearing bones are to hard for the majority of dogs to consume totally. Doesn't do thier teeth any good either. Most likely why he was burying his bones because they were to hard to eat for him.

Get some lamb flaps (ribs), lamb necks, lamb backs, turkey necks and kangaroo tails.

with problems like skin etc remember sometimes the effects of the offending substance can long outlast the exposure - If I feed my rotty eagle pack his skin is shitty for weeks even though he goes back onto a better food.

Yes ther is a certain time that it takes th ebody to detox and recover.

[luvsdogs]

I might be stupid, but what is Van?

[Stitch]

Vets All Natural Dry Mix which is a mixture of dry grains, dehydrated veges. etc. concocted by Dr. Symes (vet) supposed to simulate the contents of the stomach of animals the ancestors of the domestic dog would have eaten in the wild, which is mixed with raw minced meat, raw minced chicken frames and raw offal and fed to dogs.

You can also get it already mixed in with kangaroo meat (refrigerated line), which is what Dr Symes prefers to see VAN mixed with.

My smaller dogs are not that keen on kangaroo meat and will not eat much of it at all.

Regarding the burying of the bones, you are right about the weight bearing bones being hard to eat but he will bury all bones other than chicken frames, necks and lamb flaps and I have to watch him with lamb flaps.