Skin Problems

[Danois]

I would also wash with Malaseb all over as opposed to Aloveen at all.

I think someone else picked up on it too but careful with the Malaseb as it can be very harsh and drying. I would not use it any more than once a month personally.

[Kavik]

You see, that sounds too expensive for me! I thought BARF was supposed to be cheaper than dry food? I didn't find this the case, and that combined with the amount of work to pulp the vegies and a hard time keeping condition on him and he still scratched, made it not really worth it to me!

[tomas]

You see, that sounds too expensive for me! I thought BARF was supposed to be cheaper than dry food? I didn't find this the case, and that combined with the amount of work to pulp the vegies and a hard time keeping condition on him and he still scratched, made it not really worth it to me!

That's why I don't feed veggies,what a pain! Plus they never relaly liked them anyway.

I feed 5 dogs for about $60 a week. I am happy with that,dry would cost me over $100 a week,the amount they need. I order all online and they deliver frozen to my door the next day,I am in NZ mind you,so not sure where you would go in Aust.

Malaseb CAN be drying,yes,but it does give relief to an itchy dog. You must leave it on for 15 mins as a soak though,I used to massage Ollie while it was doing this,he went to a happy place when I did that.

Tomas.

[huski]

Oh Kavik I feel your pain. Cherry has terrible allergies. She was fine on dried food, but summer really stuffs her around. One flea bite can cause a serious out break of itchy spots. She's really bad at the moment, sometimes you really feel at a loss. She has bitten some of the fur off the inside of her front legs, is scabby etc even with weekly baths.

She broke out when I changed her to BARF and I deduced it was the red meat - she has no problem eating raw chicken or dried food with chicken in it. However, she has broken out really badly even though she is now back on dried food Although her current 'break out' seem to be different to when she reacted to a change in diet. She had rash in between her paws, on her eyes and mouth, on her belly when she reacted to the change of food but now it looks like she has small bites over her (none on her belly, no redness on her paws/eyes/mouth). I don't know if that means anything, though.

The only thing that seems to give her relief is when she gets this bad is a cortisone shot, which isn't ideal.

[Erny]

<sigh> All these allergies. It is really frustrating isn't it.

Perhaps it is the result of global warming?

Everything else that is bad is, so they say .

Interesting thread though, and if it's ok with you, Kavik, I added it as a link to my current thread on "Allergy/Intolerance". It will I think be very handy when one day someone (or any of us) need to do an archive search, it will remind us of the information contained in each.

BTW, I used the bi-carb rinse around my boy's head (muzzle and ears) and he seems to be itching that bit more now that it has dried.

I'll give it a little while longer, but might try the ACV - very diluted as he is somewhat sore and the under-ear-flap area is quite sensitive.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Erny

[Kavik]

Go for it Erny, good to share the information

Will pray to the anti-itching gods that he is not as itchy tonight!

[tomas]

Oh Kavik I feel your pain. Cherry has terrible allergies. She was fine on dried food, but summer really stuffs her around. One flea bite can cause a serious out break of itchy spots. She's really bad at the moment, sometimes you really feel at a loss. She has bitten some of the fur off the inside of her front legs, is scabby etc even with weekly baths.

She broke out when I changed her to BARF and I deduced it was the red meat - she has no problem eating raw chicken or dried food with chicken in it. However, she has broken out really badly even though she is now back on dried food Although her current 'break out' seem to be different to when she reacted to a change in diet. She had rash in between her paws, on her eyes and mouth, on her belly when she reacted to the change of food but now it looks like she has small bites over her (none on her belly, no redness on her paws/eyes/mouth). I don't know if that means anything, though.

The only thing that seems to give her relief is when she gets this bad is a cortisone shot, which isn't ideal.

Playing devils advocate,I would say she broke out when you switched her to barf as it was her system cleansing itself. Also before a dog gets better it usually gets worse,which is not pretty or comfortable to watch. Though you are right as beef can be an inflammatory food. Ollie my boy who is allergic to dust,washing powder,flea bites and every plant known to man can eat beef fine. I think there really are not that many dogs who are allergic to food.

Which is why you need some topical relief .

With Ollie I used Aloe Vera,vinegar and listerine. As well as the Malaseb.

Where you say your girl is scratching sounds like a yeast problem to me. It's worse in summer as humidity and heat make yeast multiply!

I guess going through this for years and seeing like 20 vets and Specialists,the two biggest causes of itching in dogs that I discovered is not allergies to anything they eat or touch,but yeast and Thyroid problems.

Tomas.

[tomas]

I'll give it a little while longer, but might try the ACV - very diluted as he is somewhat sore and the under-ear-flap area is quite sensitive.

Hi Erny,

I would use White vinegar diluted in distilled water,not ACV,this has yeast involved in it's production,to me that is a no no with ANY allergic dog.

Tomas.

[4 Paws]

I find Hoss Gloss not as drying as Malaseb and is used for treating yeast infections,also a lot cheaper

[KitKat]

Haven't tried the Royal Canin GSD formula - might give it a go, been recommended by a few people. Just difficult as I generally give all the dogs the same dry food, OH not all that keen on getting something different for Diesel.

It's mot my fav thing to do either...but for a short term to try it may not hurt. Mind you they could all go on the RC GSD...lol

I have tried BARF, actually made no difference and I had problems keeping weight on him (hard at the best of times to keep weight on him!). At the moment he is getting 5 times as much dry food as Kaos. Kaos is 20kg and Diesel is 30kg.

I had this problem with my two GSD's as well - huge amounts of raw food to keep them in an un-starved looking condition. However if i feed JUST raw meaty bones - none of the extras or true BARF/RAW by the book kinda stuff eg offal, vegies, fruit etc etc they don't do too badly - but they still eat more of it then of dry to keep in condition.

[Erny]

I'll give it a little while longer, but might try the ACV - very diluted as he is somewhat sore and the under-ear-flap area is quite sensitive.

Hi Erny,

I would use White vinegar diluted in distilled water,not ACV,this has yeast involved in it's production,to me that is a no no with ANY allergic dog.

Tomas.

Thank you Tomas. When I was desperate the other night (poor love .... his ears were really bothering him) I did use white vinegar (diluted in normal water, I admit - cooled boiled water ok?) and it did assist with taking the heat out of his ears and reducing the overall redness. I'm finding the tea bag treatment has been helping a bit and I thought this might prove a bit more soothing. . I did this again after the bi-carb treatment and it seems to have soothed them a little. They became very red again after the bi-carb.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Erny

[tomas]

I'll give it a little while longer, but might try the ACV - very diluted as he is somewhat sore and the under-ear-flap area is quite sensitive.

Hi Erny,

I would use White vinegar diluted in distilled water,not ACV,this has yeast involved in it's production,to me that is a no no with ANY allergic dog.

Tomas.

Thank you Tomas. When I was desperate the other night (poor love .... his ears were really bothering him) I did use white vinegar (diluted in normal water, I admit - cooled boiled water ok?) and it did assist with taking the heat out of his ears and reducing the overall redness. I'm finding the tea bag treatment has been helping a bit and I thought this might prove a bit more soothing. . I did this again after the bi-carb treatment and it seems to have soothed them a little. They became very red again after the bi-carb.

Yes IMO the bi carb makes his ears alkaline and he needs a more acidic skin to fight off all the nasties Boiled water is fine,I am lazy and bought distilled.

[Jasslyn]

As others have suggested, I'm also thinking it's a yeast infection. I read your opening post and immediately thought of my old boy (now waiting at the Rainbow Bridge). I tried for 5 years to find out what was causing the same symptoms you described, finally found a vet who simply put a bit of sticky tape on the dog's bald back, put it under a microscope and said "it's a yeast infection". For a while I cooked for my dog, he had stews with rice every day. His hair grew back, the smell went away and the itching and dandruff stopped too. Eventually I tried feeding him Coprice dry dog food and he stayed healthy on that, and had a lovely sheen to his coat. At one stage he had a relapse which I couldn't understand as I hadn't changed anything for him but I found out the neighbour's kids had been feeding their sandwiches to him through the fence... told them to please stop that as it was like poison to him and he got better again.

Something I did find helped with his itchiness when he was at his worst was pinetarsol (from the chemist). I mixed some up in a spray bottle and would have it sitting beside me. When he needed relief Jake would let me know and he'd stand there while I sprayed him.

[espinay2]

Here are a few of my suggestions for diet.

First up keep it simple. You need to get rid of the yeast and get the weight on so the two main things you need at the moment are a diet that is low in carbs and high in calories. The calories you need come from protein and fat.

Do not feed veggies of any kind for now. Many are high in sugars (particularly things like carrots) and will just grow more yeast.

Do not feed grains of any kind for now. Grains produce sugars which grow yeast.

Feed meats that are high in fats. This will provide important energy to keep the weight on

You can feed a portion of the meat ground up - while meat fed whole on the bone is ideal, feeding some ground will allow you to get more food into your dog for less energy expended eating it.

Feed a source of omega 3 - it will aid in calming iinflammation and calming the skin.

The things I would concentrate on feeding:

Chicken pet mince (usually available from $1 to $1.20 per kilo so economical). Feed as much of this as you like - perhaps several kilos a day even, split into 2 meals.

Lamb flaps or necks - Nice fatty flaps may be preferred but it depends on what you can get.

eggs - a couple a week at least

Sardines - at least one can a week

organ meat - a little each week. One packet of liver/kidney etc from woolies would be enough organ meat for a week portion-wise for all your dogs.

Fish oil capsules - 4 or 5 a day - if you have a discount chemist near you, go there as you will likely get a bottle cheaper (400 capsules per bottle - I pay around $20).

In place of biscuit treats etc for now I would suggest giving chicken wings or necks or using dried liver etc - nothing with grains.

You can also add a probiotic which will boost the immune system and help fight the yeast. My preference would be to feed a capsule rather than yoghurt as it is stronger and I would be avoiding dairy products for now too.

While such a diet shouldn't be more expensive depending on your food sources (and the diet I have outlined is not expensive at all), remember that feeding the right diet may result in reducing your vet bills so better in the long run cost-wise. Worth a go IMO.

[Kavik]

Thanks for the tips guys, will try it out and tell you how we go

[stormie]

Everyone is very keen to point out a yeast infection, which may very well be the case, but dogs get yeast infections for a reason - generally secondary to inflamed, itchy skin. Treating the yeast/staph infection might help for the period he's on antibiotics, but it's only going to come back while the skin is inflamed and the dog is still itching.

Tomas, I'm sorry, but I disagree with you regarding systemic yeast infections etc. They are in fact VERY rare. To answer your question, I feed Orbit a raw diet based on prey model theory. I have done an elimination diet with him and worked out which foods he is allergic to. I have also had 2 seperate blood tests done testing for environmental factors and both came back with very similar results.

Kavik before you go switching to a raw diet etc, I really recommend you do an elimination diet first. There's no point switching to raw if he's still allergic to the meat you are feeding. Do the elimination diet first, then when you know what is safe, you can start feeding that in raw form.

I used horse meat for our elimination diet. I got it in Sydney and it's not all that expensive - maybe about $4.00/kg for both the meat and the brisket? Orbit can't have chicken, duck, pork, fish, corn, oatmeal or soy. Lamb is a bit suspect too. Now I feed beef, roo and rabbit when I can.

I also know he is allergic to most of the plants/trees in my yard - which makes sense as that's what he is most subjected to. Dust mites are also on the list. But having these results has helped me to manage him much better. I vacuum almost every day, limit him outside, especially on windy days, rinse him after he's rolled in the grass, dry his bedding in the dryer so pollens don't land on them etc etc. I avoid supplements because most have some sort of filler in them that he's allergic to, eg soy, fish oil etc. I do give him a multi vitamin here and there as well as pro biotics, but I'm careful to make sure I know exactly what is in them. He gets antihistamines twice daily too. He's by no means cured and still needs medication, but we're on the right track now.

Just be careful - there are tonnes of 'miracle cures' out there on the internet and for about 95% of people, they'll do nothing but send you broke. IMO, you're better of spending your money finding out exactly what he is allergic to and starting on a treatment plan. I also recommend doing it under care of a dermatologist to ensure you are getting the correct information to ensure your chances of success are as high as possible. We are going to start a course of desensitising injections this winter, when pollens are at their lowest and he is at his best - it's not guaranteed but the success rate is high enough for me to want to try.

[Kavik]

I did an elimination diet on Z/D. Really am NOT interested in doing BARF/raw. Couldn't do an elimination diet on another dry food as he has had fish etc before, and the other foods recommended for elimination diet had fish in them, so it wouldn't be a novel protein.

How much was it for dermatologist consult, allergy tests and allergy vaccines and how likely to be effective? Not sure I want to fork out thousands of dollars, especially if it is not likely to do much anyway (actually OH would have a heart attack! Diesel has already been a VERY expensive dog, broke leg, got ear torn, skin problems, aural haematoma etc, he groans every time I mention taking Diesel to the vet AGAIN)

Considering nothing really has made a huge difference, including medication from vet (cortinsone, antibiotics) I am not keen on spending heaps more money for the same negligable result

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kavik

[tomas]

Everyone is very keen to point out a yeast infection, which may very well be the case, but dogs get yeast infections for a reason - generally secondary to inflamed, itchy skin. Treating the yeast/staph infection might help for the period he's on antibiotics, but it's only going to come back while the skin is inflamed and the dog is still itching.

Tomas, I'm sorry, but I disagree with you regarding systemic yeast infections etc. They are in fact VERY rare. To answer your question, I feed Orbit a raw diet based on prey model theory. I have done an elimination diet with him and worked out which foods he is allergic to. I have also had 2 seperate blood tests done testing for environmental factors and both came back with very similar results.

Well we are allowed to disagree :p

I actually think so many dogs are diagnosed as having allergies to this and that,food included,yet what it really is is yeast that has leaked from their gut because of all the grains they are being fed. Dogs are meant to have an acidic stomach to digest meat and bones,not an alkaline one to digest grains. The yeasts leak from their guts and arrive at the skin surface,causing itchies,rashes,pustules etc.

I too feed prey model,had one of my boys allergic to every grass and dust and mites and air basically. Cut out sugar in total,end of problems,well 8 months later it was!

I have since met many people whose dogs exhibited the same issues ( show so have spoken to alot,I mean more than 20 now) and once all sugar was cut out they improved,without changing to a wierd protein. Have also read many University published articles on this subject as I have access to my local University library through my work. These studies and information is worldwide,not just local.

I am not saying I am right 100%,but I feel I have a good basis to say,more dogs have yeast AND thyroid issues than maybe we or vets would have us believe.

Oh and you don't give a dog with a yeast infection antibiotics. That is using a spinrkler to put out a bonfire. You take them off sugar,change the ph of their stomach,give good probitics,capsules rather than just yoghurt,use vinergar and listerine to clean the skin. This also works on an itchy dog even if it does not have a yeast problem.

But as yeast is easy to diagnose ,a simple vet visit and a look under a microscope of a scrape or a swab and you should know exactly what you are dealing with. It could well be mange or a thyroid problem or a food intolerance,though I really feel the latter option is unlikely and what you get when switching proteins is a lower Omega 6 ratio in that protein hence the dog seems improved.

Tomas.

[tomas]

I did an elimination diet on Z/D. Really am NOT interested in doing BARF/raw. Couldn't do an elimination diet on another dry food as he has had fish etc before, and the other foods recommended for elimination diet had fish in them, so it wouldn't be a novel protein.

How much was it for dermatologist consult, allergy tests and allergy vaccines and how likely to be effective? Not sure I want to fork out thousands of dollars, especially if it is not likely to do much anyway (actually OH would have a heart attack! Diesel has already been a VERY expensive dog, broke leg, got ear torn, skin problems, aural haematoma etc, he groans every time I mention taking Diesel to the vet AGAIN)

Considering nothing really has made a huge difference, including medication from vet (cortinsone, antibiotics) I am not keen on spending heaps more money for the same negligable result

Derm tests cost me $160, 8 years ago...not sure what they would be now. meds on top of that maybe made it up to be $300 all up? They never worked,6 weeks of antibiotics and he started itching a week off them. I solved the problem myself after I read about yeast and thyroids causing itchy problems in dogs.

My local vet never suggested a yeast problem,I asked for scarpes and swabs to be sent off. Found he had this and a few grass mites. I never treated them but treated him for yeast and when he had his next swab a month later they found no mites. Most likely he had them as his immune system was compromised.

Kavik I hope for your pocket book and Diesel that you can sort this out. Did you ever test for yeast btw? Not sure I asked that. I would try that before doing the skin and allergy tests,it is much cheaper and easier.

Tomas.

[sas]

I did an elimination diet on Z/D. Really am NOT interested in doing BARF/raw. Couldn't do an elimination diet on another dry food as he has had fish etc before, and the other foods recommended for elimination diet had fish in them, so it wouldn't be a novel protein.

How much was it for dermatologist consult, allergy tests and allergy vaccines and how likely to be effective? Not sure I want to fork out thousands of dollars, especially if it is not likely to do much anyway (actually OH would have a heart attack! Diesel has already been a VERY expensive dog, broke leg, got ear torn, skin problems, aural haematoma etc, he groans every time I mention taking Diesel to the vet AGAIN)

Considering nothing really has made a huge difference, including medication from vet (cortinsone, antibiotics) I am not keen on spending heaps more money for the same negligable result

We decided not to go down the derm route primarily because the majority of the people we spoke to spent thousands and didn't get a good result.

I guess you don't know until you try.

After 2 years and thousands upon thousands of dollars trying to treat our boy, the only thing that is working is a homeopathic treatment program.

The thing about having an allergic dog is it is expensive because unless you try stuff you don't who whether it will work and that's including the alternative treatments.