Skin Problems

[Kavik]

I am in Northern Sydney, near Hornsby

[stormie]

Kavik - ignore what your vet says about antihistamines and give them a try. They've really helped Orbit - took a while to find one that did, but it was worth it. He's on phenergan and gets about 1mg/kg twice a day. We didn't have much luck with the newer non-drowsy ones, but phenergan has helped limit the amount of cortisone he needs. Here's a link of dose rates for you.

Would horse meat be an option for you? I got mine from burns pet foods at rouse hill. They will deliver too. You could feed it with sweet potato or normal potato to bulk it up a bit?

Agree with what persephone said about washing too. Many of the allergens are also absorbed through the skin as well as inhaled, so a daily rinse can help wash off any pollens etc that might also be causing a problem.

The trouble with atopic dogs is that its quite common for them to be allergic to multiple things. Some are lucky and just have food issues, but often there's food and environmental things causing the problem. It makes it hard to diagnose, because while you're doing the elimination diet, they are still reacting to other things so it can be difficult to know whether you're having much success.

Another thing to look at trying (which can be hard) is to keep him outside for 2-3 weeks with no access to inside, then do the opposite and keep him inside as much as physically possible, and see whether you notice any difference in him. It might help you to work out whether his problems are primarily pollens, or whether its something inside, like dust mites. Another thing they can react to is storage mites which are commonly found in dry dog food!

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Kavik - ignore what your vet says about antihistamines and give them a try. They've really helped Orbit - took a while to find one that did, but it was worth it. He's on phenergan and gets about 1mg/kg twice a day. We didn't have much luck with the newer non-drowsy ones, but phenergan has helped limit the amount of cortisone he needs. Here's a link of dose rates for you.

Agreed with Stormie! Trial for at least two wks though cause they can take sometime to become effective and as is the case with humans some work better for others - perhaps start with Phenergan or Polaramine

[Kavik]

Does phenergan make them as drowsy as people? I still like (trying to) train him fpr conpetition, and it is hard enough keeping him motivated

[Kavik]

So for phenergan, that makes it one tablet per 10kg? (that topic on dosages got me so confused at Vet Nursing, obviously I still have problems with it )

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Both Phenergan and Polaramine can cause drowsiness, yet you may find if one of these works and the chewing/scratching is lessened that he might pick up emotionally and mentally cause those two activities are exhausting and would disturb his sleep constantly too.

A bit of a comparison Benson was depressed previously, happy once itching/scratching stopped with the Atopica!

Yet personally I would find another vet that was more into a holistic way of thinking about allergies and see if they think trialing a two or three pronged method would be beneficial - like dual trial of antihistamine, prednisone and perhaps even a washing regime That or make it clear to your current vet that you want to trial these types of things as you can not afford to go to a dermatologist.

Edit - I did hear from my vet there is a trial being run by a drug company at the moment - but you could be given a placebo and could be worse in the long run (can find out more details from my friend if your interested.)

Edited April 27, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[Nekhbet]

I actually think so many dogs are diagnosed as having allergies to this and that,food included,yet what it really is is yeast that has leaked from their gut because of all the grains they are being fed. Dogs are meant to have an acidic stomach to digest meat and bones,not an alkaline one to digest grains. The yeasts leak from their guts and arrive at the skin surface,causing itchies,rashes,pustules etc.

how the heck does yeast leak out of a dogs gut onto the skin? Sorry that cant happen.

Yeasts are opportunistic - if there is a problem then they take hold. The bodys primary fuel source is Glucose which is a product of digestion. If there is a problem with allergies then they take over and the body has trouble.

Z/d is useless for many dogs and I find it rediculous an allergy diet is SO low in any protein and so high in carbs.

Kavik Diesel is very sensitive and Royal Canin large breed (never tried the GSD formula) was the only thing him and Krueger both did well on. I thought the Coprice was OK I'm back to RC as diesel and skootas skins have gone bad again on the food. Apart from that maybe a pure raw diet is the only way to go with him.

[sas]

I have just ordered a bottle of the Rufus & Coco Anti Itch Shampoo to see how it compares with the Malaseb.Only $12.95 with free delivery and its for yeast infections,hopefully it won't be as drying as malaseb http://shop.rufusandcoco.com.au/p-7-itch-relief.aspx

We've used it, it's a good wee product!

[Kavik]

May try Royal Canin then, see how we go.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Perhaps try an antihistamine, RC and washing with a new shampoo weekly to see if there is a change overall (probably sounds silly cause most people try everything individually) but it can't hurt and you might find you have a scratchless / chewless dog in a matter of weeks

Edited April 27, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[Kavik]

I have just ordered a bottle of the Rufus & Coco Anti Itch Shampoo to see how it compares with the Malaseb.Only $12.95 with free delivery and its for yeast infections,hopefully it won't be as drying as malaseb http://shop.rufusandcoco.com.au/p-7-itch-relief.aspx

We've used it, it's a good wee product!

Did you find it better than Malaseb? Less drying? Any ideas on a good conditioner to use with a medicated shampoo?

[sas]

I have just ordered a bottle of the Rufus & Coco Anti Itch Shampoo to see how it compares with the Malaseb.Only $12.95 with free delivery and its for yeast infections,hopefully it won't be as drying as malaseb http://shop.rufusandcoco.com.au/p-7-itch-relief.aspx

We've used it, it's a good wee product!

Did you find it better than Malaseb? Less drying? Any ideas on a good conditioner to use with a medicated shampoo?

Yeah much gentler than Malaseb. I don't think you'll need a conditioner with it, we didn't.

[stormie]

Agree with sas on the Rufus and Coco - was much kinder on Orbits skin and didn't dry it out like the malaseb or pyohex does. I have the pyohex conditioning lotion which I used when his skin gets bad. He gets areas of pustules (staph) when he's having a bad period, and I find the lotion really great for getting rid of them. I put some lotion on the pustules at night and by morning they are looking much better.

The normal dose for phenergan is 1mg/kg twice daily. It comes in 10mg and 25mg tablets, so depending on his weight, might be easier to buy the 25mg tabs. Orbit gets 50mg morning and night and I wouldn't say it makes him excessively drowsy. He does sleep more, but not to the extent where he acts sedated or anything like that. Still just as keen to play and train etc.

[cowanbree]

I have been fighting allergy issues with my boy Mac for over 4yrs. I had tried just about everything on your list including skin specialist, allergy tests, elimination diets and every supplement under the sun all with minimal success. Finally I gave up and decided perhaps it wasn’t something I could cure but rather just try and keep under control using pred to control the scratching and hot spots, antibiotics to stop the constant yeast infects and medicated baths to keep him as well as possible.

He lost a huge amount of weight and muscle tone, was losing all his coat and just looked dreadful. I took him into my vet and said we have to do something, this is no life. He said you know I have just read an article about thyroid issues, lets retest him. I personally thought it was a waste of money as he had been tested some time ago and he was in the normal range, on the low side but still in the normal range. This time he came back at 14 with normal being 20-66. We started him on meds and he has had one hotspot in the last 7mths.

So my moral of the story is if you have skin issues test the thyroid and if it is in the bottom 1/3 of normal or lower try supplementation for minimum of 3mths (takes ages to work) Mac was a normal dog until 3ish which also indicates it was never allergies

[Nekhbet]

forgot to add Phenergen is perfectly fine for dogs and its cheap! Diesel gets a 25mg tablet (he's about 50kg now) when he's itchy, he's not too drowsy but at least he gets a good night sleep from it :rolleyes:

[Kavik]

I've also found a small lump, a bit smaller than size of pinky fingernail, at the top of the patch on his flank that he chews.

With thyroid, I googled and it said they tend to put on weight? Diesel has dropped weight.

Deciding whether to go to vet about weight issue and small lump or try changing food/shampoo and possibly antihistamines.

[Erny]

... he had been tested some time ago and he was in the normal range, on the low side but still in the normal range.

This is the problem with the tests and the analysis we have out here (assuming it was done in Australia, Cowanbree?). Aside from the fact that our laboratories don't have the facilities to conduct a full blood panel test (T4 and TSH are just the basic ones), the analysis chart is too broad for starters and for the results to fall out of the "normal" bracket, the thyroid tissue is already considerably destroyed.

This time he came back at 14 with normal being 20-66. We started him on meds and he has had one hotspot in the last 7mths.

Glad you found the source of the problem :rolleyes:.

So my moral of the story is if you have skin issues test the thyroid and if it is in the bottom 1/3 of normal or lower try supplementation for minimum of 3mths (takes ages to work) Mac was a normal dog until 3ish which also indicates it was never allergies

My understanding is that generally improvement is seen fairly quickly when a thyroid condition is appropriately treated.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Erny

[tomas]

I actually think so many dogs are diagnosed as having allergies to this and that,food included,yet what it really is is yeast that has leaked from their gut because of all the grains they are being fed. Dogs are meant to have an acidic stomach to digest meat and bones,not an alkaline one to digest grains. The yeasts leak from their guts and arrive at the skin surface,causing itchies,rashes,pustules etc.

how the heck does yeast leak out of a dogs gut onto the skin? Sorry that cant happen.

It's called Leaky Gut Syndrome,look it up! I never said it went from their guts to their skin directly,I said "The yeasts leak from their guts and arrive at the skin surface,causing itchies,rashes,pustules etc."

Candida (yeast) adheres to mucosal surfaces. It's adherance depends on the immune system of the host. It then secretes enzymes that destroys membrane integrity,leading to dysfunction. It also serecetes toxins which activate the immune system,overload the liver and then deposit themsleves in body tissues. We see it at the skin surface and they can itch in their ears,eyes and get eye infections, itching their underbelly and underarms,feet,genitals,skin rashes and pustules may also develop. This excessive itching can lead to endless biting ,chewing and hair loss. Symptoms can also include blackening of the skin,dry flaky skin or greasy skin and a bad odour may develop.

Tomas.

[Nekhbet]

Symptoms include: abdominal pain, asthma, chronic joint pain, chronic muscle pain, confusion, fuzzy or foggy thinking, gas, indigestion, mood swings, nervousness, poor immunity, recurrent vaginal infections, skin rashes, diarrhoea, bed-wetting, recurrent bladder infections, poor memory, shortness of breath, constipation, bloating, aggressive behaviour, anxiety, fatigue, feeling toxic.

leaky gut is also called Dysbiosis as its theoretically caused by an imbalance in the gut - the beginnings would be more typical GI symptoms of bloating, wind, diahorea, mucus on the stools etc typical symptoms of a gut infection. Information tends to point that macromolecules, toxins and other substances will have an effect before Candida on the body. All the websites tend to have different stories on the condition and rather broad - Black skin is a side effect from constant licking as well it doesnt have to have a microorganism to cause it. Smells are definately caused by bacterias/fungus/yeast but that is for a skin scraping to confirm what exactly it is.

Practitioners of alternative medicine use the term Candida to refer to a complex with broad spectrum of symptoms, the majority of which center around gastrointestinal distress, rashes, sore gums and other miscellaneous symptoms. Candida is accorded responsibility for symptoms as specific as hay fever, as vague as "brain fog" and as common as weight gain or flatulence. These symptoms are attributed by alternative medicine practitioners to the "overgrowth" of intestinal candida albicans, which they claim leads to the spread of the yeast to other parts of the body via the bloodstream.

Use of the term Candida in alternative medicine to describe this complex is unassociated with its use in clinical medicine to refer to the fungus that causes vaginal yeast infections and thrush can be confusing for patients. No studies have proved that having intestinal candidiasis causes any symptoms of illness. [6][5]

To treat what they refer to as Candida, alternative medicine practitioners will often recommend avoiding antibiotics, birth control, and foods that are high in sugar or yeast, ostensibly to "eliminate excess yeast" in the body. However, there is no evidence that these "candida cleanse" treatments treat intestinal candidiasis effectively, or cure any of the symptoms claimed by the proponents of the hypothesis.[11] [12] [6][5]

if the dog was severely immunocomprimised you would have a possibility of Candia albicans overpopulating the gut, somehow leaking through the gut wall (thats quite a hole in the lining of the gut you should understand - it would have to pass though the wall not the cells themselves) travelling through the blood system and then infesting the skin without causing other severe issues. Chance of that is slim and not proven scientifically 100%

Edited April 27, 2009 by Nekhbet

[tomas]

Symptoms include: abdominal pain, asthma, chronic joint pain, chronic muscle pain, confusion, fuzzy or foggy thinking, gas, indigestion, mood swings, nervousness, poor immunity, recurrent vaginal infections, skin rashes, diarrhoea, bed-wetting, recurrent bladder infections, poor memory, shortness of breath, constipation, bloating, aggressive behaviour, anxiety, fatigue, feeling toxic.

leaky gut is also called Dysbiosis as its theoretically caused by an imbalance in the gut - the beginnings would be more typical GI symptoms of bloating, wind, diahorea, mucus on the stools etc typical symptoms of a gut infection. Information tends to point that macromolecules, toxins and other substances will have an effect before Candida on the body. All the websites tend to have different stories on the condition and rather broad - Black skin is a side effect from constant licking as well it doesnt have to have a microorganism to cause it. Smells are definately caused by bacterias/fungus/yeast but that is for a skin scraping to confirm what exactly it is.

Practitioners of alternative medicine use the term Candida to refer to a complex with broad spectrum of symptoms, the majority of which center around gastrointestinal distress, rashes, sore gums and other miscellaneous symptoms. Candida is accorded responsibility for symptoms as specific as hay fever, as vague as "brain fog" and as common as weight gain or flatulence. These symptoms are attributed by alternative medicine practitioners to the "overgrowth" of intestinal candida albicans, which they claim leads to the spread of the yeast to other parts of the body via the bloodstream.

Use of the term Candida in alternative medicine to describe this complex is unassociated with its use in clinical medicine to refer to the fungus that causes vaginal yeast infections and thrush can be confusing for patients. No studies have proved that having intestinal candidiasis causes any symptoms of illness. [6][5]

To treat what they refer to as Candida, alternative medicine practitioners will often recommend avoiding antibiotics, birth control, and foods that are high in sugar or yeast, ostensibly to "eliminate excess yeast" in the body. However, there is no evidence that these "candida cleanse" treatments treat intestinal candidiasis effectively, or cure any of the symptoms claimed by the proponents of the hypothesis.[11] [12] [6][5]

if the dog was severely immunocomprimised you would have a possibility of Candia albicans overpopulating the gut, somehow leaking through the gut wall (thats quite a hole in the lining of the gut you should understand - it would have to pass though the wall not the cells themselves) travelling through the blood system and then infesting the skin without causing other severe issues. Chance of that is slim and not proven scientifically 100%

I only have issue with you saying that chances are slim that this could happen and that there would have to be quite a hole on the gut for this to happen. I believe it is FAR more common than we are led to believe.

So we will have to agree to disgaree on the fine print.

I feed a prey model diet with raw green tripe as a major part of my dogs diets and this is not a problem for me.

However what all this discussion does do is give those owners with animals with skin issues something more to think about than maybe what they are being told at vets. If only one persons dog is helped by anything either of us might say,then this is all worth something :rolleyes:

Tomas.