Skin Problems

[Kavik]

We haven't had him tested for yeast infection (don't think so anyway) - only have done what vet recommended. If I can't get an improvement in a few weeks we will go to vet and it will be one thing I recommend testing for. Should I test thyroid as well?

[tomas]

We haven't had him tested for yeast infection (don't think so anyway) - only have done what vet recommended. If I can't get an improvement in a few weeks we will go to vet and it will be one thing I recommend testing for. Should I test thyroid as well?

Thinking of how much these things cost,I would try yeast first,then have a blood test for thyroid,then allergy testing....

JMHO.

Tomas.

[KitKat]

Kavic have you tried the turkey based foods? I know Advance had a Tuna based one (as opposed to ProPlans Salmon based one) - not sure if that's worth looking into as well?

[Akay]

post deleted

Edited April 26, 2009 by Akay

[Erny]

We haven't had him tested for yeast infection (don't think so anyway) - only have done what vet recommended. If I can't get an improvement in a few weeks we will go to vet and it will be one thing I recommend testing for. Should I test thyroid as well?

Kavik - all I can say is that I have absolutely no regrets in spending the money and making the effort in getting my boy's thyroid levels tested. They've come in as having "excellent" levels and I at least know that thyroid is not the culprit for the troubles I've been having with my boy.

But if you do have them tested, I'd strongly recommend the tests be sent via Dr. Jean Dodds in the USA. We don't have the full blood panel tests out here and if my boy's had come back 'normal' with our Aussie tests, I'd still be wondering if it was an accurate result or not. Let me know if you end up wanting the paperwork and some help in how to arrange it. It's not that hard. The most difficult was understanding how Fed-Ex work.

ETA: Tomas - Perhaps this has been said and I've missed the post, but what tests are done for "yeast"? Is it bloods, or skin scrapings, or swabs?

ETA: The thyroid panel test cost me $65.00 (US) and FedEx cost $111.00 (AU). It took 5 days for the bloods to reach Dr. Dodds (that included a weekend, as it turned out) and test results were known in about 24 hours after that.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Erny

[sas]

We haven't had him tested for yeast infection (don't think so anyway) - only have done what vet recommended. If I can't get an improvement in a few weeks we will go to vet and it will be one thing I recommend testing for. Should I test thyroid as well?

Sure why not if you have the $ Remembering that they don't do as full panel tests here as they do in America.

[sas]

ETA: Tomas - Perhaps this has been said and I've missed the post, but what tests are done for "yeast"? Is it bloods, or skin scrapings, or swabs?

Just a tape test off the foot isn't it?

[firedrop]

Kavik seeing as you are in Sydney, I could give you the details of the dermatologist I go to. See have been absolutely amazing with Odin's allergies. If it wasn't for her I dread to think what Odin would be like. We are also allergic to quite a few things we went for intradermal testing (they test for over 70 different allergins) and found out Odin was allergic to a variety of things and decided to go along the de-sensitiving vaccine which has worked wonders.

Please PM me to get the dermatologists details - she is happy to consult over the phone, in person and via email after the initial consult.

FD

[stormie]

Kavik - As a very general rule, food allergies are often the least responsive to cortisone. My derm doesn't recommend using Z/D as an elimination diet as she has had a poor response with it due to the ingredients in it, even though they claim the body can't recognise the meat protein.

Maybe pm Zayder_asher - she's gone down a very extensive path with her two and is VERY knowledgeable on the subject.

Tomas - the yeast found on dogs skin is not the same type of yeast found in breads etc. It's called malessezia and is simply a species of yeast. Malessezia is present on the skin of healthy dogs, as is staph, but gets out of control when the skin becomes inflamed and irritated - often from scratching.

And it is treated with antibiotics - its called ketoconazole.

I'm interested to know how you'd test for yeast within the body.

This might help:

WHY SUSPECT YEAST?

Yeast infections are especially itchy, crusty, and smelly. Often a dog starts with a rash or with simple itching but the skin thickens to an "elephant" skin appearance. The itch is extreme and the odour can be especially troublesome. Parts of the body or the entire body can be affected. Mostly dogs are affected but cats can get yeast infections as well. Yeasts are the spore-like forms of fungi; Malessezia dermatitis is a fungal infection of the skin.

WHERE WOULD A DOG GET A YEAST INFECTION?

Yeast happily live on most normal skin and in ears and anal glands. To get a yeast infection, conditions on the skin surface have to change to favour the proliferation of the yeasts. The yeasts in small normal numbers are harmless but when the yeasts are present in large numbers, disease results.

So what conditions lead to a yeast proliferation? An increase in skin oils (which often occurs in an allergic flare up) would be the most common situation. Sometimes there is an immune deficiency which allows the yeast proliferation. Some animals are battling seborrhoea (excessive oil production of the skin) and thus are naturally predisposed to the yeast proliferation. Some animals are actually allergic to the yeasts themselves. The most important thing to realize is that yeast infections are not contagious but they tend to recur unless the underlying allergy, seborrhoea, or whatever problem is controlled.

The following breeds are predisposed genetically to yeast infections: the West Highland White Terrier, Basset Hound, Cocker Spaniel, Silky Terrier, Australian Terrier, Maltese, Chihuahua, Poodle, Shetland Sheepdog, Lhasa Apso, and the Dachshund.

HOW IS THIS CONFIRMED?

There are several testing methods to confirm the overgrowth of yeasts:

*

Impression smear (pressing a microscope slide on the skin to collect yeast organisms)

*

Scotch tape sampling (pressing a piece of clear tape to the skin to collect yeast organisms)

*

Skin scraping with a blade (scraping the skin with a blade to collect yeast organisms)

*

Cotton swab (rubbing a moistened Q-tip on the skin to collect yeast organisms)

*

Skin Biopsy (removing a small plug of skin with a biopsy punch with a local anesthetic. This is the most invasive choice but provides substantially more diagnostic information)

Very few yeasts need to be seen under the microscope to confirm yeast infection.

HOW DO WE GET RID OF IT?

Treatment can be topical, oral, or both. Topical treatment alone is not usually adequate but, since oral medications are expensive, often topical management alone is attempted first, especially if the pet is small enough for convenient frequent bathing or if only a small body area is involved.

Shampoos: While degreasing shampoos such as the benzoyl peroxide (oxydex®, pyoben®) and sulfur/salicylate (sebolyte®, sebolux®) shampoos will help remove the skin oils feeding the yeast, there are shampoos that are specifically anti-yeast. We prefer the 4% Chlorhexidine shampoo called Chlorhexiderm Max as it both strips skin oil and kills yeast; however, other anti-yeast products include Selsun Blue, Miconazole shampoo, Nizoral shampoo, and more. The pet must be bathed twice a week to start and the shampoo requires a 15 minute contact time (meaning do not rinse the lather for 15 minutes).

Spot Treatments:

If only a small area is involved, it is probably not necessary to bathe the entire animal. Special acetic acid wipes can be used to cleanse the affected area. Mixtures of vinegar and water can be used but the pet will develop a distinct vinegar odour.

Oral therapy: Ketoconazole (Nizoral®) rules when it comes to oral therapy. Typically a several week treatment is needed and there are numerous protocols involving different dosing schedules. Higher doses tend to be needed if recurrence is a problem. The extreme itch usually resolves within one week. This medication is expensive, especially in larger dogs, but often there is no way around its use.

Treatment of the Underlying cause: It is important to realize that yeast overgrowth occurs in response to a primary problem be it allergy, seborrhoea or something else. If the underlying problem is not controlled, yeast dermatitis is likely to periodically recur

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Hi Kavik. Let me start by saying I understand and empathise with your frustration. I have no real advice other than to do what you can with what you can afford and try to save up dollars if you can for other possible treatments/trails till you find what best works for Diesel

Here is Benson's story thus far ...

My boy is a Golden Retriever, he is 2 yrs and 2 mths old. He chews and scratches almost all the time if he is not being medicated. As well he is very depressed when he is chewing and quite lathargic. Recently we put him on Atopica (cyclosporin) and he became a different dog within 4 days, happy, smoochie, with no itching and chewing for the first 3 wks. But once we reduced the amount of cyclosporin from 200mgs daily to 200mgs every second day the itching and chewing returned - not as strong as if not on Atopica but still.... *sigh*. See Atopica through my vet it is $581.00 per mth and I don't think that my insurance would cover it for the entire year nor is it the best thing to have him on for life. Yes not as bad as prolonged coritsone use but could still cause problems later down the track.

So on the 8th of May we are having an intradermal skin test done as we have pretty much exhausted every other avenue thus far. We have used 5 different shampoos, done 2 food elimination trails, had treatment by a homeopathic vet for several mths, tested for hypothyroidism and yeast infection, been on cortisone injections, prednisone, antibiotics, 4 types of antihistamines and now Atopica. As the Atopica at a reduced dosage is not effectively preventing Benson's chewing/itching, we will more than likely be trialing desensitisation injections and hoping for the best. Otherwise we will have to continue with the Atopica and low dose prednisone on consequtive days as that will be the final option for us.

If you have any questions about anything we have done please feel free to ask on here or pm me as I will do my best to assist you on this god awful journey we are both having to take.

[Danois]

FTPO - check your insurance policy as most have a sublimit for medications in a policy year. For example the RSPCA policy has a $1,500 sublimit.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Thanks Danios - have just found the docs with pet plan and it covers Veterinary Fees up to $12000.00 per policy year - thank god cause we are already up to $1787.40 after the allergy test on the 8th The bugger is just having the cash up front for everything

Edited April 26, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[Kavik]

Not sure what else I could have tried as an elimination diet? Z/D ultra was recommended by my vet, or the Eukanuba Fish and Potato but as Diesel has had fish as part of his normal diet, we couldn't do that. The Eagle Pack holistic range did include things like chicken fat, which again is something he'd already had. And I am not keen on trying a homemade elimination diet.

He does have that thickened 'elephant skin' on his flank where he chews himself.

I have heard of Atopica, but out of my price range.

Antibiotics does help to clear it up somewhat (can't remember which antibiotics used).

I have resigned myself to Diesel being itchy forever, as even the vet said they never really get better, you can just try to make them more comfortable. So I'm mostly looking for low cost things that can help relieve the itching and any dietary help that might improve his skin and coat (and smell).

OH is not keen on spending thousands to fix this, as Diesel has already cost probably around $7000+ in vet bills. Kelpies are much hardier and cheaper to keep!

[First Time Puppy Owner]

My vet put us on Roo and Sweet Potato as an elimination diet - perhaps that's worth investigating with your vet.

Also have you trialled any antihistamines - vet might also have some ideas regarding the use of low dose prednisone and an antihistamine such as polaramine or phenergan - at least Diesel might get to a point of comfort.

Do ask for a thyroid test - TSH and T4 to be done - should not cost more than $150 - $200 and get them to thoroughly check for malessezia.

Also another cheap test is a flea allergy test - permoxin sprayed daily is what we did for a mth.

Good Luck Kavik

[Kavik]

I asked about antihistamines, the vet didn't think it was worth doing as they are not as effective with dogs as people?

I think I want to get thyroid checked as I am really having problems keeping weight on him.

I'll ask about Roo and Sweet Potato - but roo has low fat right? Not sure how that will go with keeping weight on.

[4 Paws]

I have just ordered a bottle of the Rufus & Coco Anti Itch Shampoo to see how it compares with the Malaseb.Only $12.95 with free delivery and its for yeast infections,hopefully it won't be as drying as malaseb http://shop.rufusandcoco.com.au/p-7-itch-relief.aspx

[persephone]

Kavik- maybe another vet's opinion would help?

Doesn't sound from your posts that your current vet is terribly keen to try different things...

had my old Mitchell with chronic allergies/yeast.

One thing the vet told me to do - which did help...

was to -everyday (usually before bed)

wash and dry thoroughly the dog's pads and around the anus (including the underside of the tail)

The explanation was that these areas being moist, and collecting matter- and dogs sleeping curled up..often nose-to-tail.... and licking... this provided a continual supply of nasties .

It did help cut back on the smell, too

Back in those days (1980's/90's ) I was only offered prednil..and malaseb type wash.

Mitch was on prednil most of his life.. mostly on a 'pulse' routine.

Apart from being always hungry- and putting a bit of weight... he lived a good life, and was much more comfortable than before the drugs!!

He died at about age 12.....after nearly 10 years of prednil.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

Bummer about the Roo being so lean I wonder if there is another meat that you could trial.

But I would ask about the thyroid testing and if they do not want to a full screen ie TSH as well I would be seeking another vet that will do as you request.

Edit - Piegirl has had some success with antihistamine and her boy is allergic to a heck of alot of things so I would not be ruling it out altogether - so an Persephone said maybe another vet might be the way to go!

Edited April 26, 2009 by First Time Puppy Owner

[Kavik]

current vet suggests Atopica or the dermalogical testing - both of which are expensive.

I wouldn't mind if it was $1000 and you would definitely fix the problem, but am not willing to do $1000 to find what he is allergic to, $500 in medication/injections to find he is still as bad as before or only a little better.

[First Time Puppy Owner]

current vet suggests Atopica or the dermalogical testing - both of which are expensive.

I wouldn't mind if it was $1000 and you would definitely fix the problem, but am not willing to do $1000 to find what he is allergic to, $500 in medication/injections to find he is still as bad as before or only a little better.

Well I think its time to find another vet that is willing to assist you in other ways, where abouts are you and perhaps someone can suggest a vet that thinks out side of the square!