What's Wrong With My Puppy's Foot?

[Melbomb]

Thanks for that, I will track some down over the weekend. I am currently using Artemis, but I read the article b the Great Dane Lady and she also recommended Eagle Pack. In the meantime I have cut back to just three half-cup meals of Artemis

If you do change her dry food make sure to change her over gradually.

I hope the second opinion you get is a better diagnosis.

[neatz]

dog food bags tend to be terrible over ... my 60kg Dogue now eats about 3-4 coffee mugs of dry food a day the packet says he needs about double that but you use what you think is right. If the pup is a good weight a couple of chicken necks are good as well.

I guess they want to you to use more and buy more. Maybe cut back even more then?

No they don't want you to buy more. The amounts listed on the bag is a guideline. You then look at your dog and assess whether you need to cut back or increase quantity depending on its body score or body condition. The same would apply with barf. You don't just stick to a rigid amount. You need to consider the amount of energy your dog requires for growth, heavy exercise, recovering from surgery, pregnancy etc. It's not black and white and there are times when adjustments need to be made.

[laffi]

Artemis large breed puppy should be much better than Eagle Pack large breed puppy because of its superior ingredients.

[ksmith]

Artemis large breed puppy should be much better than Eagle Pack large breed puppy because of its superior ingredients.

Thanks Laffi

[Nekhbet]

Crude Protein min. 23.0%

Crude Fat min. 12.0%

Crude Fiber max. 3.5%

Moisture max. 10.0%

377 ME (Kcal/cup)

Calcium min. 1.5%

Phosphorus min. 1.0%

Vitamin A min.22,000 IU/kg.

Vitamin Emin.165 IU/kg.

Sodium min. 0.34%

DHA min. 0.1%*

Omega 6 min.2.1%*

Omega 3 min.0.65%*

Glucosamine min.400 ppm; 41 mg/cup*

this is eagle pack giant breed

Crude Protein. min 27% Crude Fat, min 13% Crude Fibre, max 3% Moisture, max 10% Vitamin E, min 300IU/kg Biotin, min 0.33mg/kg Omega-6 Fatty Acids, min 2.5% Omega-3 Fatty Acids, min 0.4% DHA ( Docosohexaenoic Acid),min 0.05%

Calorie Contents Calculated ME-3,500kcal/kg 327kcal/Cup (250ml) Calculated on an as-fed basis.

artemis

The ingredient qualities are similar its just what they use that is different. Eagle pack is corn, rice whereas artemis is potatos, brown rice, oatmeal and millet. Its the protein ratios that should matter at the moment.

[ksmith]

Hi all! I'm cautiously optimistic with regards to our pup's foot. This morning, after cutting back on her food for trhe past couple of days, it looks so much better! It looks like you all might be right and the vet may have got it wrong - here's hoping. I am still taking her for a second opinion on Tuesday, but if it keeps going the way it is I think we will be okay. Thanks again!

[Erny]

would you consider knocking back to something like Eagle Pack giant breed puppy food for a while? Its quite good for problems.

My pup developed carpal laxity syndrome - signs of which appeared 3 days after he came here (he was 8wo when I brought him home). Like yours, my boy was underweight/nourished (3.5kg at 8wo), so it was a fine line between increasing weight and not feeding too much. If you feed to much, you encourage bigger growth spurts. The bones grow fast, but the ligaments don't keep up, and this causes the twisting/knuckling over. So the condition can be caused by either under-nutrition or over-nutrition.

All I concentrated on was keeping weight gain down to about 1kg per week (even though he was very ribby/thin and the temptation was always there to beef him up, this meant for him, feeding less that the prescribed amount). I fed Eagle Pack Holistic for Large Breed Puppies (my boy is a Rhodesian Ridgeback) and within about 6 weeks of feeding this and this only, clear evidence of the condition righting itself was visible. By about 8 weeks in, his front legs were amost completely straightened and his toes weren't stressed either (this is caused by the bowing out affect of carpal laxity and the extra pressure of weight on the outside of the foot).

I would definitely recommend you consult a specialist. If it is diagnosed as carpal laxity syndrome, I'd also be somewhat wary of anyone who wants to splint your dog - I believe that's still a fairly common practice and I'm not convinced that's entirely necessary nor necessarily best - but I'm not a Vet/Specialist myself and I can only tell you what worked in my own experience, so check it out first if it comes to that.

Edited April 24, 2009 by Erny

[ksmith]

would you consider knocking back to something like Eagle Pack giant breed puppy food for a while? Its quite good for problems.

My pup developed carpal laxity syndrome - signs of which appeared 3 days after he came here (he was 8wo when I brought him home). Like yours, my boy was underweight/nourished (3.5kg at 8wo), so it was a fine line between increasing weight and not feeding too much. If you feed to much, you encourage bigger growth spurts. The bones grow fast, but the ligaments don't keep up, and this causes the twisting/knuckling over. So the condition can be caused by either under-nutrition or over-nutrition.

All I concentrated on was keeping weight gain down to about 1kg per week (even though he was very ribby/thin and the temptation was always there to beef him up, this meant for him, feeding less that the prescribed amount). I fed Eagle Pack Holistic for Large Breed Puppies (my boy is a Rhodesian Ridgeback) and within about 6 weeks of feeding this and this only, clear evidence of the condition righting itself was visible. By about 8 weeks in, his front legs were amost completely straightened and his toes weren't stressed either (this is caused by the bowing out affect of carpal laxity and the extra pressure of weight on the outside of the foot).

I would definitely recommend you consult a specialist. If it is diagnosed as carpal laxity syndrome, I'd also be somewhat wary of anyone who wants to splint your dog - I believe that's still a fairly common practice and I'm not convinced that's entirely necessary nor necessarily best - but I'm not a Vet/Specialist myself and I can only tell you what worked in my own experience, so check it out first if it comes to that.

Thanks Erny. I am seeing a vet I trust greatly on Tuesday, who also happens to have an ortho performing surgery at the practice that day. Both will have a look at her. Just out of interest how did your dog grow. Is he normal size now?

[Erny]

Thanks Erny. I am seeing a vet I trust greatly on Tuesday, who also happens to have an ortho performing surgery at the practice that day. Both will have a look at her. Just out of interest how did your dog grow. Is he normal size now?

..... he definitely grew!! In my opinion, he was and is a 'late bloomer' in terms of muscle development/filling out. I was careful to do very little (ie next to nothing) in terms of 'forced' exercise. IOW, the majority of exercise he got was by his own volition, not through on-lead exercise. Once his front legs straightened out, what was noticeable was 'floppiness' in his front legs, from the fetlock down and I was concerned on that for a while because he had a tendancey to go over on his knees during running/play, but that too has strengthened with time and with free exercise.

He's still quite 'leggy' and lean, but I have since and more recently realised he developed a food intolerance, but I've now switched to Eagle Pack Duck & Oatmeal formula. This is an adult formula and although I would have liked for him to stay on the puppy formula for a couple more months, he's at an age (10mo) where switching over is ok.

Here's some photo's (they're not very good as it was difficult to get him to stop in place whilst I snapped the shots) but they might give you an idea of the improvement in his legs :

Pardon him being on a slippery floor in this one that follows ..... I was actually in the middle of cleaning the floors and had partially lifted the carpet piece :

And then, about 6 or 7 weeks later ....

Sorry ..... having trouble getting photo's up. Refer next post .....

Edited April 25, 2009 by Erny

[Erny]

As I was saying ..... about 6 or 7 weeks later, not quite right yet, but much better ................

And this one is more recent, although he went into 'drive' and was sitting back with front legs out a bit (although you might not tell that due to the angle of the photo), so it makes him appear a bit flat footed. His toes are tightening up (they tightened/loosened quite a bit throughout his development phases) now that I've switched his diet again.

And here's one of him at the beach (this was about 2 months ago) ...

Edited April 25, 2009 by Erny

[ksmith]

As I was saying ..... about 6 or 7 weeks later, not quite right yet, but much better ................

And this one is more recent, although he went into 'drive' and was sitting back with front legs out a bit (although you might not tell that due to the angle of the photo), so it makes him appear a bit flat footed. His toes are tightening up (they tightened/loosened quite a bit throughout his development phases) now that I've switched his diet again.

And here's one of him at the beach (this was about 2 months ago) ...

WOW! That really is a massive difference. And yes he certainly has grown - what a gorgeous dog. I love ridgies

[Erny]

WOW! That really is a massive difference. And yes he certainly has grown - what a gorgeous dog. I love ridgies

Thank you Ksmith . Yes, it is a huge difference and sometimes I tend to forget just what a difference it really is until I go back over and compare photos. I hope your boy's problem is something also which can be worked out through diet. I went with EP holistic large breed puppy for the lower protein content compared to some others. That, and because it is also recommended by many - for general use as well as for use in growth issues such as this. If it is dietary (and from what you recently say, then it may well be), then remember not to be in so much of a hurry to load the weight on. Sure ... you want them healthy and with some cover, but the bone structure is the focal point at this stage. If you feed too much it can encourage faster growth spurts, and you don't really want that, assuming carpel laxity is the issue. Bulking out can come later.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Erny

[ksmith]

WOW! That really is a massive difference. And yes he certainly has grown - what a gorgeous dog. I love ridgies

Thank you Ksmith . Yes, it is a huge difference and sometimes I tend to forget just what a difference it really is until I go back over and compare photos. I hope your boy's problem is something also which can be worked out through diet. If it is (and from what you recently say, then it may well be), then remember not to be in so much of a hurry to load the weight on. Sure ... you want them healthy and with some cover, but the bone structure is the focal point at this stage. If you feed too much it can encourage faster growth spurts, and you don't really want that, assuming carpel laxity is the issue. Bulking out can come later.

Yes absolutely. When we got her and she was so skinny my focus was just to fatten her up. Even though I have had three dogs before I had never heard of issues like these. Thanks to all the friendly advice I am now a little bit wiser regarding the nutritional needs of dogs and certainly about the fact that it is such an important issue. I thought I had done my research there's obviously more to do.

[puggy_puggy]

Hi all! I'm cautiously optimistic with regards to our pup's foot. This morning, after cutting back on her food for trhe past couple of days, it looks so much better! It looks like you all might be right and the vet may have got it wrong - here's hoping. I am still taking her for a second opinion on Tuesday, but if it keeps going the way it is I think we will be okay. Thanks again!

Great to hear.

Pretty sure with the reduced feeding things will get back to normal.

Did your vet even tell you to cut back her food at all?

[ksmith]

Hi all! I'm cautiously optimistic with regards to our pup's foot. This morning, after cutting back on her food for trhe past couple of days, it looks so much better! It looks like you all might be right and the vet may have got it wrong - here's hoping. I am still taking her for a second opinion on Tuesday, but if it keeps going the way it is I think we will be okay. Thanks again!

Great to hear.

Pretty sure with the reduced feeding things will get back to normal.

Did your vet even tell you to cut back her food at all?

No. And when I asked whether she thought it was knuckling over she looked at me like I was a bit of an idiot!

My intial upset at the vet has now become a bit of anger. Even if she does turn out to be right, which is looking doubtful, she certainly didn't handle it with much sensitivity. And I was thinking if I had never posted I would still be feeding her like I was and she probably would now just be a whole lot worse and I would be none the wiser as to the possibility of it being knuckling over. I guess not all vets are created equal!

But it's been great to have more positive advice and opinions from all of you

[puggy_puggy]

Time to get a new vet I think.

For them not to even suggest it was knuckling and then to assess your pups diet. Making suggestions including cutting down food is pretty bad on their behalf.

Knuckling is something that needs to be delt with quickly otherwise pups can be left with permanant problems.

[ksmith]

Time to get a new vet I think.

For them not to even suggest it was knuckling and then to assess your pups diet. Making suggestions including cutting down food is pretty bad on their behalf.

Knuckling is something that needs to be delt with quickly otherwise pups can be left with permanant problems.

I agree. It's back to my old vet on the other side of town. At least I can trust him - always on call, never over-dramatises, just a really cool animal loving guy.

By the way I just read Pippy and Poppy's story, the poor little dears. How's Poppy's leg? I hope she's recovering well.

[puggy_puggy]

By the way I just read Pippy and Poppy's story, the poor little dears. How's Poppy's leg? I hope she's recovering well.

Pop is sitting on my lap right now. She doesn't realise anything is wrong with her other then she is not allowed to run around and either has to be held or confined to her crate or puppy pen for toileting. She is using the leg, with the cast on it, and putting weight on it and her surgeon is happy. Into the third week now of ten. Pip is still with their mum and being a massive sook.

[ksmith]

By the way I just read Pippy and Poppy's story, the poor little dears. How's Poppy's leg? I hope she's recovering well.

Pop is sitting on my lap right now. She doesn't realise anything is wrong with her other then she is not allowed to run around and either has to be held or confined to her crate or puppy pen for toileting. She is using the leg, with the cast on it, and putting weight on it and her surgeon is happy. Into the third week now of ten. Pip is still with their mum and being a massive sook.

10 weeks - at least she's in good hands and I'm glad things are going well for her

[Nekhbet]

not all vets know the ins and outs of nutritional problems manifesting as physical symptoms - how many dogs I have seen in and out of vets with skin/ear problems and on hundreds of dollars worth of meds only to be on teh road to recovery after a simple diet change.

fattening up is over rated. As long as the pup is not emaciated and there is decent steady muscle growth then that is the important part. My dogue took longer to grow but he's a nice solid healthy dog now even though he was shorter then many others while he was growing. Big deal I had a healthy dog that kicked arse at lure coursing when many people laughed that he would be too slow

remember too that large - giant breeds can take anywhere from 18 months to 3 years to finish maturing! We still hold this misconception that by the age of 12 months its done and dusted which spurs on this over feeding myth. Less can be more Good luck with your pup I'm sure it will come good in your care