Too Much Socialisation

[Kharn]

K9, can this work start to be implemented for an older dog? Or is it something you have to achieve with a young pup?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9, can this work start to be implemented for an older dog? Or is it something you have to achieve with a young pup?

K9: No, once the value has been set it can only be changed with training not socialisation. It can be undone so not all is lost.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Just keep in mind guys, this is not the program I give my clients, this is just a discussion on the subject.

Reading it here is far from the information needed to get it right.

[Staranais]

K9: aha, now I know who your are lol.. With Monsters prey training, neutralising him would have made him even better!

Yes, you've discovered my secret identity...

I guess that's the problem with getting an adult dog, you can't raise them the way you want & sometimes they can come with interesting behavioural baggage! I still wouldn't have swapped him for the world, though.

[laeral]

K9, can this work start to be implemented for an older dog? Or is it something you have to achieve with a young pup?

K9: No, once the value has been set it can only be changed with training not socialisation. It can be undone so not all is lost.

How?

[Steve K9Pro]

S: Yes, you've discovered my secret identity...

I guess that's the problem with getting an adult dog, you can't raise them the way you want & sometimes they can come with interesting behavioural baggage! I still wouldn't have swapped him for the world, though.

K9: me either, his pic is still up here... Hall of famer!

L: It can be undone so not all is lost.

How?

K9: It is simple balanced distraction training. So we take into consideration what your dog is distracted by, supply that in a controllable fashion & rebalance the temperament.

[corvus]

K9: Lots of people steal, murder & rape... is that how you tell the best thing to do? If lots of people do it? lol...

All right, you caught me out. I just like them more than you. The most intense advocate for socialisation I know is a certified behaviourist and trainer as well. She doesn't like dog parks very much either, but she will get anyone she can convince into puppy preschool with the pups the moment they get them home. She trains with the basic rule that if your dog isn't being responsive enough it's because you aren't being interesting enough and concentrates on becoming more interesting rather than conditioning the dog to find you more interesting in the first place. I like this general philosphy because it treats dogs like individuals and the focus is on them rather than you. I am extremely leery of philosphies that turn dogs into something that is not good enough if left to develop on their own. Why tamper with what is naturally dog? I know you don't think that dogs naturally like to spend time with other dogs, but, well, that's something I can never agree with. They are social critters after all, and I don't think I can take the place of a dog for my dogs. They know I'm no dog.

I think if I continue this discussion I'm just going to be repeating myself over and over. So I concede to you, K9, as a better debater on this topic, but you still haven't convinced me so it's only second prize. I usually say I'm easily convinced by a good argument, but I think in this case I'm not because it goes so against the grain of everything I love about dogs that I could never see it as a good argument whether it is or not. I LOVE that Kivi adores other dogs. It's who he is and I wouldn't have it any other way. If I wanted a dog that thought the world of me alone I'd get a different breed. Penny's verging on that kind of thing and I don't like it very much. It's too much pressure for me, especially when I spend so much time away from home. I hate coming home from a field trip to have her glued to my leg for the rest of the day.

So dog parks can be good or bad. I don't like seeing them all tarred with the same brush because they have been a source of great, safe fun for us so far. I haven't actually found one of these bad ones yet, although I absolutely believe they exist.

Socialised dogs sometimes think other dogs are awesome fun. Well, I dunno about everyone else, but I love taking my dogs places they think are awesome fun. You know, because I love them and stuff. It puts a big smile on my dile to see them having fun. I don't think there is much risk in this, but other people do. If you do, then don't let them, I guess. If you can't be bothered putting in the work to condition your dog to come when called then condition them to not find anything else in the world but you particularly amazing in the first place, I guess. I reckon the recall would be less work and more fun, but K9 assures us neutralisation is easy. Maybe not fun, though.

I don't really subscribe to pack theory, but that's a bit complicated and a topic I'm not getting into. Suffice to say I'm not the only one that doesn't and it's not necessarily a fact. Why chase scary dogs away when your dog can safely tell them there's no need to get the teeth out? I have chased dogs away on occasion and it upsets Penny more than just letting her deal with it does. If I chase she thinks there's something to be worried about. If I don't she calmly handles it herself. Good for her. Maybe other dogs aren't as worried by chasing.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

Why chase scary dogs away when your dog can safely tell them there's no need to get the teeth out?

Two reasons. As my dog's guardian, its my job to keep them safe. When the incoming dog weighs 10 times what my dog does, or if there are more than one of them, or at any time when I percieve that the incoming dog poses a threat, then I will act (and have acted) to step up to the leader/defender role. I don't chase away, I block or deter while keeping myself between my dogs and the oncoming dog/s.

And secondly, because a dog aggressive dog hellbent on damage doesn't give a rats arse what your dog is trying to tell it or how non-threateningly it is acting. I've had my dog attacked while it was behaving in this manner and it was of no consolation to me that my dog went down trying to submit to the other one.

You are probably unlikely to get a seriously dog aggressive dog in a dog park more than once, but who wants to be the owner of the dog that gets taken out on that one visit?

Your dog does not have the ability to control the results of every dog-dog encounter that occurs. We, on the other hand, have the ability to control where and when our dogs interact with others in order to keep them safe. I opt to act in the interests of my dog's safety.

I don't really subscribe to pack theory, but that's a bit complicated and a topic I'm not getting into.

I'm thinking more exposure to Basenjis will cause you to reconsider that view. I cannot but conclude that you have formulated your views about dogs only from observations of your own. I remain convinced that greater exposure to more dogs would cause you to reconsider your views.

We have selectively modified the domestic dog to produce a range of degrees of sociability and of reactions to unknown dogs. Territoriality, dominance, pack drive and prey drive are all variables in domestic dogs. I think it pays to keep that in mind.

Spend some time with livestock guardians and your conclusions about 'natural dog behaviour' would be wildly different to what you currently conclude. If Kivi wandered onto Lilli's property, he'd be killed by her dogs regardless of how appeasing his behaviour was. Lilli's dogs reactions would be natural for them - its what they've been bred to do. You don't see a lot of livestock guardians down the dog park but you do see a lot of dogs that have high degrees of dominance and low fight thresholds. .

Edited May 1, 2009 by poodlefan

[Kavik]

K9: Lots of people steal, murder & rape... is that how you tell the best thing to do? If lots of people do it? lol...

All right, you caught me out. I just like them more than you. The most intense advocate for socialisation I know is a certified behaviourist and trainer as well. She doesn't like dog parks very much either, but she will get anyone she can convince into puppy preschool with the pups the moment they get them home. She trains with the basic rule that if your dog isn't being responsive enough it's because you aren't being interesting enough and concentrates on becoming more interesting rather than conditioning the dog to find you more interesting in the first place. I like this general philosphy because it treats dogs like individuals and the focus is on them rather than you. I am extremely leery of philosphies that turn dogs into something that is not good enough if left to develop on their own. Why tamper with what is naturally dog? I know you don't think that dogs naturally like to spend time with other dogs, but, well, that's something I can never agree with. They are social critters after all, and I don't think I can take the place of a dog for my dogs. They know I'm no dog.

I think if I continue this discussion I'm just going to be repeating myself over and over. So I concede to you, K9, as a better debater on this topic, but you still haven't convinced me so it's only second prize. I usually say I'm easily convinced by a good argument, but I think in this case I'm not because it goes so against the grain of everything I love about dogs that I could never see it as a good argument whether it is or not. I LOVE that Kivi adores other dogs. It's who he is and I wouldn't have it any other way. If I wanted a dog that thought the world of me alone I'd get a different breed. Penny's verging on that kind of thing and I don't like it very much. It's too much pressure for me, especially when I spend so much time away from home. I hate coming home from a field trip to have her glued to my leg for the rest of the day.

So dog parks can be good or bad. I don't like seeing them all tarred with the same brush because they have been a source of great, safe fun for us so far. I haven't actually found one of these bad ones yet, although I absolutely believe they exist.

Socialised dogs sometimes think other dogs are awesome fun. Well, I dunno about everyone else, but I love taking my dogs places they think are awesome fun. You know, because I love them and stuff. It puts a big smile on my dile to see them having fun. I don't think there is much risk in this, but other people do. If you do, then don't let them, I guess. If you can't be bothered putting in the work to condition your dog to come when called then condition them to not find anything else in the world but you particularly amazing in the first place, I guess. I reckon the recall would be less work and more fun, but K9 assures us neutralisation is easy. Maybe not fun, though.

I don't really subscribe to pack theory, but that's a bit complicated and a topic I'm not getting into. Suffice to say I'm not the only one that doesn't and it's not necessarily a fact. Why chase scary dogs away when your dog can safely tell them there's no need to get the teeth out? I have chased dogs away on occasion and it upsets Penny more than just letting her deal with it does. If I chase she thinks there's something to be worried about. If I don't she calmly handles it herself. Good for her. Maybe other dogs aren't as worried by chasing.

I will say again, you know with Zoe, I did want her to find other dogs fun and run in the park with them, because it was fun to watch them all interact. I thought that enough interaction would teach her how to deal with troublesome dogs because she could read their body language. Well, all I got for this was a dog aggressive dog. So now I know better, that this was the WRONG thing to do and the WRONG way to go about it. Now if I don't like the way the dog is acting, body language wise, I don't allow my dogs to interact with it, don't stick around to see what will happen.

I do sincerely hope that you do not end up with the type of dog that can't cope with your socialisation preference.

[huski]

I am extremely leery of philosphies that turn dogs into something that is not good enough if left to develop on their own. Why tamper with what is naturally dog? I know you don't think that dogs naturally like to spend time with other dogs, but, well, that's something I can never agree with. They are social critters after all, and I don't think I can take the place of a dog for my dogs. They know I'm no dog.

I don't think going to the dog park or most of the way we raise our dogs in modern society is 'naturally dog'. Is it really natural for a dog to bound up to another dog (or animal) outside of their set pack and want to engage and play? Is it really all dog to let a small puppy loose in a free running pack of 20-30 other dogs? If yes, then why socialise in the first place, if that friendliness or familiarity is something that comes naturally?

The way we chose to socialise our dogs is not 'all dog' at all, it's what we humans perceive is the best thing to do. If we left our dogs to their own devices, how would they socialise themselves?

Why chase scary dogs away when your dog can safely tell them there's no need to get the teeth out? I have chased dogs away on occasion and it upsets Penny more than just letting her deal with it does. If I chase she thinks there's something to be worried about. If I don't she calmly handles it herself. Good for her. Maybe other dogs aren't as worried by chasing.

Because that is the job of the alpha.

Would you really just leave Penny to her own defenses if a seriously dog aggressive dog was mauling her? If we were approached by an aggressive dog my protective instinct would kick in long before I waited to see how my dog would react.

Edited May 1, 2009 by huski

[Odin-Genie]

I guess I can see good points on both sides of the debate. Controlled socialisation is the key for me, which basically means that I don't put my dogs in a situation that is new without being cautious.

At the same time, going to the local dog park is 'controlled' for me since I know most dogs, my dogs know most dogs and how to interact with them, and if a strange dog walks in with questionable attitude, I stay very close to my dogs to ensure that they interact safely. I also leave the dog park on those rare occasions when a known aggressive dog comes to the park. After the play, some of us take our dogs on walks together.

I am glad of this because my dogs are extremely good with other dogs. Sometimes my sister's 10 year old lab comes to stay with us. He has had a number of surgeries recently, so I was initially a bit worried. But they never bothered him. Another time a friend's dog (who my dogs had never met) came to stay at our place (JRT). Initially the dog was scared. My elkhound sat down in front of the dog and started to play with him gently. Within 15 mins they were all having a great time.

So yes, I do see a lot of value in letting my dogs play with other dogs. But I would never ever let them face any kind of aggression by themselves. That's a lesson I'd rather they never learn.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: All right, you caught me out. I just like them more than you

K9: Caught you out a few times. Never even met me, hardly a fair call.

C: She trains with the basic rule that if your dog isn't being responsive enough it's because you aren't being interesting enough and concentrates on becoming more interesting rather than conditioning the dog to find you more interesting in the first place. I like this general philosphy because it treats dogs like individuals and the focus is on them rather than you.

K9: Thats basically treating all handlers the same though? Just the flip side of the coin but the disadvantage is the owner not the dog. I have had a ton of people leave trainers like that to come & get help as they haven't been able to become "attractive" enough.

C: Why tamper with what is naturally dog? I know you don't think that dogs naturally like to spend time with other dogs, but, well, that's something I can never agree with. They are social critters after all, and I don't think I can take the place of a dog for my dogs. They know I'm no dog.

K9: Natural is form a pack, keeps others out of it if these were wild dogs.

C: I think if I continue this discussion I'm just going to be repeating myself over and over. So I concede to you, K9, as a better debater on this topic, but you still haven't convinced me so it's only second prize.

K9: It was never meant to be a thread over winning prizes, I am not a debater, I am a trainer, in my field I don't take second prize.

C: I usually say I'm easily convinced by a good argument, but I think in this case I'm not because it goes so against the grain of everything I love about dogs that I could never see it as a good argument whether it is or not.

K9: Heart over head decision perhaps, doesn't matter to me, but I have said that a number of times.

C: It's who he is and I wouldn't have it any other way. If I wanted a dog that thought the world of me alone I'd get a different breed. Penny's verging on that kind of thing and I don't like it very much. It's too much pressure for me, especially when I spend so much time away from home. I hate coming home from a field trip to have her glued to my leg for the rest of the day.

K9: Hey I have always said, having your dog play with other dogs gets you off the hook, means your almost commitment free, but that's not why I have dogs, I actually like them wit me as often as possible.

C: If you can't be bothered putting in the work to condition your dog to come when called then condition them to not find anything else in the world but you particularly amazing in the first place, I guess. I reckon the recall would be less work and more fun, but K9 assures us neutralisation is easy. Maybe not fun, though.

K9: No matter how you seemingly try & twist around what is being said, you still don't get your point accross.

Thre is no les fun with me, fun comes from me, but if peope dont want to spend time with their dog, they now have two options, take it so somene else or their dog can play with it for you or just dont get a dog.

This isnt about conditioning dogs to a recall or not, its about not creating problems you have to fix later on.

C: I don't really subscribe to pack theory, but that's a bit complicated and a topic I'm not getting into.

K9: Above you call on whats natural, but you dont susbribe to pack theory, I guess it doesnt go along with your other theories.

C: Why chase scary dogs away when your dog can safely tell them there's no need to get the teeth out?

K9: It is called your job as the Alpha.

C: I have chased dogs away on occasion and it upsets Penny more than just letting her deal with it does. If I chase she thinks there's something to be worried about. If I don't she calmly handles it herself. Good for her. Maybe other dogs aren't as worried by chasing.

K9: Perhaps slide the keyboard in front of Penny, she appears to be the Alpha here.

Either her or the wild Hare perhaps...

Edited May 1, 2009 by K9 Force

[Quickasyoucan]

Corvus when I read your posts I think maybe I can kind of see the where you might be coming from.

When I grew up with dogs, I didn't have that much to do with training or caring from them, they were Dad's dogs and we got to share sometimes, so I guess I grew up a bit idealistic about letting nature be paramount letting dogs play with other dogs. Our springers weren't particularly reliable in recall but we didn't have dog parks per se in the UK, we took them to the woods to run and dog on dog encounters were kind of sparse.

Then I got my own dog here in Australia and reality kind of kicks in, you learn more you experience more.

My dog was involved in the few scuffles at the dog park, luckily no one suffered any serious physical damage but I started to realise the potential for what could happen. I saw other full on fights where the protagonists were not so lucky. I met people whose dogs had been mauled by other dogs leading to vet bills and fear issues.

I started realise that what my idea of what might be thought to be "natural" for a dog might not be quite right and moreover the need to take into account that the restrictions that society now places on dog ownership have turned dog parks and the like into a concentrated cauldron of dog behaviours, good, bad and downright ugly.

I think the responses of many of us have been tempered by our experiences. I don't have a neutralised dog (got him too late for that at 10 months), but his interest in other dogs has largely waned with age with the odd exception, but what I do know is that since I stopped going to the busy dog parks, wandering around chatting, and not paying much attention to what was going on and "letting dogs be dogs", and started training with my dog at less popular off leash areas, the bond between us has grown stronger and he seems more relaxed and content in so many facets of his life.

I don't think not playing with other dogs worries him one bit.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

this thread is really interesting to me as i have been questioning myself over this.

i see my job is to protect the "nature" and "personality" of my dog in addition to looking after their needs.

i have made a choice not to go to a dog park because i can't protect my dog from any harm that may occur there. i have seen dogs personality change because of a bad experience with other dogs.

for me the perceived beneifts of my dog socialising with other dogs does not outweigh the risks of harm, both mental and physical that could happen.

IMO i think that letting a dog to play with other dogs as a substitute for excercise/training is owners being lazy or they didn't pick the right breed for their lifestyle.

the risks are too high for me to have my dogs interact with unknown dogs. my dog does not seem upset by this, she is at level 3 obedience and she pays little attention to other dogs. this suits me very well and my dog is very well balanced IMO.

also, i treat my dog like a dog. my friends who have dogs don't do this and they are always saying that my dog is really well behaved and their's aren't....i wonder why!!!! my dog never has to stress about what decisions to make nor whether she should/could do something. i set the rules and she follows them. when she is in unfamiliar situations she looks at me to see what she should be doing or how she should be behaving. i like that.

i think some issues are in this thread because some posters are putting values into what training methods are being used.

i say each to their own but just understand the risks that are there. if we are not honest with ourselves then we can cause harm to our dogs.

[lovemesideways]

Why chase scary dogs away when your dog can safely tell them there's no need to get the teeth out?

I can't understand how you would not protect your dog?

Really. I can't understand it. Just stand back and let a aggressive dog approach my dog? Never!

I'm sure that Rover would be able to diffuse the situation as you said Corvus, but haven't you ever met a dog that is Unstable? It doesn't matter how many clear signals of submission or avoidance your dog is showing. The other dog will still try and attack, no matter what.

My dog isn't supposed to fend for himself, he isn't made to hunt for himself, and he certainly isn't made to defend himself! Thats my job, as his owner, provider and protector.

If I was watching a pack of wolves, or any animals in the wild. Then you have to let things happen. The natural order of things. Wolves will hunt, kill and eat animals. Defend their territory against other wolf packs. Mate and produce more wolves. Establish rank and order within the pack.

My dog isn't a wolf, he isn't a wild animal, hes a dog.

[yellowgirl]

I'm so glad to find this thread! I can understand both sides of the equation. I used to take my mini poodle, Chester, to our dog park 3 times a week. He absolutely loved it ... and I loved watching him play. He was never involved in a fight and every single time was a great time for him, he loved to run and play with his friends. There were, however, numerous times when other dogs would get into arguments, and my biggest gripe was the line of owners leaning against the fence chit-chatting with each other and paying absolutely no attention to their dogs. I do think that Chester was a little safer because I paid constant attention to him. But ... and it's a big but ... just this past February, I was not able to protect him when a couple of larger dogs ran into him and bowled him over. He yelped, but a few minutes later he was back to playing and running around. A couple of days later, the damaged disc ruptured, his vertabrae collapsed and his back legs were paralyzed. He had to be put to sleep.

Just two days before Chester died, I took in a 3 year old Chinese Crested rescue girl. The short story is that due to her previous treatment she came to me terrified of the outside world. In the 3 months that I've had her she has improved remarkably. I was told by lots of people that I 'must' get back to the dog park, not only for myself, but that it would be good for Madeline and her confidence (the socialising theory). I have taken her a few times when there were none, or only one or two dogs there. The last couple of times she just trotted around sniffing, having no interest in the other dogs whatsoever. I'm thinking there is absolutely no benifit to her being here. She is nervous before we go in, it takes her 5 minutes to settle down enough to walk around, she's not really interested in running around there anyway ... and I am so protective of her that I can't relax. If more than two dogs show up, I'm out of there.

I feel so terribly guilty for having put my girl in this unnecessary situation. Luckily, it hasn't set her confidence training back, but how stupid was I to think that taking her to a dog park would be good for her? For some reason I thought that she was 'supposed' to enjoy being with a pack of running, playing dogs. Chester liked it, but that was him. Madeline isn't interested and I don't think it's in her best interests to pursue it. We go for walks every day, she has learned lots of different tricks, she just graduated to class 3 in obedience training, we go to the Petstock store 2-3 times a week for non-invasive socialising and confidence building .... She has come SO far in the short time she's been here, what the heck was I thinking?!?

Different things work for different dogs. My job is to make sure that my girl is happy, secure, confident and safe. So for us, no dog park ... it's not even an option anymore!

I actually feel liberated!!

Thank you!

[Aussienot]

I was told by lots of people that I 'must' get back to the dog park, not only for myself, but that it would be good for Madeline and her confidence (the socialising theory).

Taking your dog to a Dog Park is not socialising. It is throwing your dog in at the deep end and hoping he can swim.

What you are doing with Madelaine sounds more like socialising. Controlled environment and happy experiences.

I am very sorry about the loss of Chester, and glad that you found a little girl who needs you.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Different things work for different dogs. My job is to make sure that my girl is happy, secure, confident and safe. So for us, no dog park ... it's not even an option anymore!

I actually feel liberated!!

Thank you!

this is the best lesson we can all learn (my bolding in above).

i am glad you feel liberated. trust your instincts and know that what works for some dogs may not work for yours. as i said before i will never take my dog to a dog park as the risks outweigh the rewards IMO.

[smokeysue]

dark angel, the use of corrections when trying to manage aggression only lends to a dog who becomes a ticking time bomb.

Whilst he will initially shows avoidance through the use of corrections, any given opportunity that presents itself, he will take. Never fight aggression with aggression.

How long have you been using corrections for? If your method is not giving you an increasing line of consistent behaviour ie. his aggression is lessening and he seems more relaxed around new dogs, then it is working. If you have to correct him each time he sees another/new dog, then your method is not working.

I agree, but what do you do to fix this problem please. Sue

[Zug Zug]

Wow - a long thread and I think this all just shows how difficult dog-dog aggression can be to manage. I agree - advice very welcome!

My dogs sit at opposite ends of this spectrum - one is the type who seems able to disarm even the prickliest canine approach, the other has a very low fight threshold and picks fights in very unwise circumstances at times. She is quite small - I have wondered at times 'what on earth are you thinking of?' but I know she's not really thinking at those moments - just reacting...

I don't think it's easy, but have come to the decision that my snappy dog goes nowhere off leash. No dogs parks (definitely not!), no running on the beach, nothing like that. We do formal obedience where she is under my close supervision and instruction, and the other dogs are equally focussed on their owners. She mixes with my other dog (her best mate), and a very short list of trusted dogs of other friends, with very careful introductions to ensure they interact well. And I'll tell you, that's a list of only 2 other dogs and that's it.

It's definitely fear-based with her. Hard to put a single explanation on why - she was a pound dog, but we were also interrupted during an evening walk when she was about 3 by 2 very large dogs who proceeded to circle us very menacingly. I got scared, angry and protective all at once (as it sounds like most of us would) and picked her up (I've since been told this was very unwise for my own safety) and told the 2 circling dogs to GO HOME! (...and other stronger things which I won't repeat.) There was no owner in sight, and it was fairly late at night. Luckily they thought I was tougher than I actually am and they left.

Now, maybe that influenced her behaviour now, maybe not. She's getting on a bit now and my focus is on managing her aggression, which is part of how she is wired up now I think. I definitely reward her for ignoring other dogs. I don't find any point in punishing bad reactions by her - I focus on separating them (she's on lead remember) and make a mental note I should not have let that develop. Requires vigilance.

It's sad, though. She misses out on a lot. When younger she loved playing with other dogs, and still does with her short list of canine buddies. She would love to run on the beach. And I think that's why people have shown such a strong interest in this thread - mixing with other dogs is a great joy for our canine friends when it can be done safely.

And you know, even on lead it can be dicey. I was on the beach with my beautiful but snappy dog a few weeks back. She was on lead, so was everyone else's dog (I went at on-lead-only time). And yet someone bowled right on up behind me with a MASSIVE dog and thought he could sneak up for a play. My dog looks soft and friendly (see picture - the dark one). She is not. Luckily his dog was and we got them apart before anything happened. But his dog weighed at least 80kg and my heart nearly stopped.

You get sick of hearing yourself say 'No, please don't, she's not as friendly as she looks.'