Too Much Socialisation

[Esta]

Hi folks, first- time post- how could I resist this red- hot issue?? apologes in advance for all my bad spelling. The quote below quite surprising:

Whilst he will initially shows avoidance through the use of corrections, any given opportunity that presents itself, he will take. Never fight aggression with aggression.

Since when is correcting a form of aggression? If you are 'correcting' aggressively then I would suggest that you have crossed a line into ineffectual punishment, venting your own frustration, anger or fear and agree that has no place in dog training and esp. socialisation. If the corrections used are not working then the method, intensity and timing thereof should be reconsidered, as well as the emotional state of the handler.

Another thing not to forget is keeping the balance of correction and reward. Eg, dog glares at approaching/ passing dog. Trainer corrects with the most effective way for that dog in that situation. Focus, or perhaps heel etc command follows. Apon compliance- praise is given. So not always DONT DONT DONT without guidance of what to DO. A lot of repititions is key- if the DA has been long standing then you need to help create a new neural net in the dogs brain through repititions of the desired behaviour, and by interrupting/ preventing the old, unwanted behaviour as often as possible these pathways will dissapear over time. How much time depends on the dog and the relationship with the owner. I think some have mentioned that the focus on owner command, repeated as many times as necessary, not only helped the dog to unlearn the aggressive or timid behaviour and learn owner- focus, but also freed them from the burden of having to attempt to flee or stack up and try to control situations with aggression and made for happier allround dogs.

Of course being attacked by another dog will set the process back, however, you would be unlucky to have this happen when your dog is not holding eye contact w the potential aggresser.

[Tonymc]

Esta,you have misinterpretated what Kelpie-I meant in her post.Have another read. Tony

[fainty_girl]

My dogs love going to the dog park and they go daily.

I did stop going to a particular park, because I thought it was too exciting and too busy, particularly for Tilly...

At this park that I used to go with, Tilly hated this one particular dog and on two occasions she picked a fight with it ...it was not a major fight and no damage was done to the other dog, just a small mark on Tilly's face which is now a scar. For some reason, she just hated that dog.

When I first got Tilly she was not all that tolerant of other dogs at the park that were 'in your face' annoying, and would occasionally snap to give them a warning, but she doesn't do that anymore. I think going to the dog park and playing with so many different dogs has really helped her with that. She is pretty good with other dogs now, and wants to run with any dog that she can find, big or small. The main thing I have to watch her with now is if she sees a dog fight, scuffle or very rough play, then she wants to join in sometimes , so I try to keep her away from those situations in the park!

I think dog parks are great, as long as everybody is aware of the situations/things that their dogs may react negatively towards.

The only thing I don't get is why some people walk dogs (usually small white fluffy dogs) that react aggressively to every dog that approaches them. Surely dogs like them are not getting much enjoyment from their visit to the dog park!

[corvus]

Why chase scary dogs away when your dog can safely tell them there's no need to get the teeth out?

I can't understand how you would not protect your dog?

Really. I can't understand it. Just stand back and let a aggressive dog approach my dog? Never!

I'm sure that Rover would be able to diffuse the situation as you said Corvus, but haven't you ever met a dog that is Unstable? It doesn't matter how many clear signals of submission or avoidance your dog is showing. The other dog will still try and attack, no matter what.

It seems that no matter how many times I say this it doesn't sink in.

Yes, we have met unstable dogs. Penny can pick them sooner than I can and stays away. If she cannot stay away, I prepare for battle. This has happened to us on my driveway multiple times and on the streets multiple times. It has never happened in a dog park or on the beach. Personally, I think the risks of meeting an aggressive dog are higher on the streets than in off leash dog areas, but maybe I'm just lucky and every one of the dog parks and beaches I have been to have been good ones. I watch and learn from Penny. If she's not making eye contact with a dog I am on high alert.

If someone can tell me how any training method or philosophy can prevent this from happening, then be my guest. As far as I can make out, you can meet these dogs anywhere anytime and when you do the best you can do is stay calm and jerk your dog out of the path of the one charging at the last minute, then hope to hell you can either get out of their trigger zone before they recover and come at you again or that someone will be around to help you. We had a dog living next door to us that would charge at Penny every time we walked up our driveway. His owner would try to stop him with a tennis racket. He was too fast. You could fend him off by blocking him because Penny was small, but you hoped to god his owner was on the run to get him because you can't block a dog hellbent on getting at your dog indefinitely and he was pretty vicious. When he finally did bite someone a fence went up the next day. My mother and I reflected that we should have let him bite one of us months ago.

[corvus]

When I first got Tilly she was not all that tolerant of other dogs at the park that were 'in your face' annoying, and would occasionally snap to give them a warning, but she doesn't do that anymore. I think going to the dog park and playing with so many different dogs has really helped her with that. She is pretty good with other dogs now, and wants to run with any dog that she can find, big or small.

At the risk of starting up another heated discussion about my dogs and myself, I honestly think that both Kivi and Penny have relaxed around dogs that do odd things through exposure at the dog park. Kivi has learnt that sometimes dogs race up and often a game follows. Penny has learnt that dogs that race up aren't always about to throw themselves at her and try to rip her to pieces, which had been her experience in life until dog parks. People are alway complaining about dogs that run up to their dogs... you could always try to habituate your dog to dogs that race up. It worked for Kivi, and even Penny after her very unpleasant experiences with charging dogs. No doubt it won't work for every dog, but it seems preferable to me than simply ranting about "rude" dog behaviour and your inability to avoid it. For the record, Penny doesn't like dogs racing up to her even when they are friendly. But she's not terrified of it because she knows they'll leave her alone if she's close to me. It helps that Kivi likes to go out to meet them nowadays, so they don't usually pay much attention to Penny.

[Miranda]

It seems that no matter how many times I say this it doesn't sink in.

Yes, we have met unstable dogs. Penny can pick them sooner than I can and stays away. If she cannot stay away, I prepare for battle.

Corvus one day one of your dogs will be involved in a fight, the fact that you're 'prepared for battle' is irrelevant because fights erupt in a split second and you will be powerless to do anything about it unless you wade in and attempt to physically separate them, a dangerous and often fruitless course of action that will probably result in severe injuries to yourself as well as the dogs. Dogs can inflict massive amounts of damage in a very short time and if you're the only person present they can be virtually impossible to break up.

Personally I think you and your dogs are an accident waiting to happen, but you obviously think you have everything under control so why don't you leave it at that and agree to disagree with most of the others on this forum.

[huski]

At the risk of starting up another heated discussion about my dogs and myself, I honestly think that both Kivi and Penny have relaxed around dogs that do odd things through exposure at the dog park. Kivi has learnt that sometimes dogs race up and often a game follows. Penny has learnt that dogs that race up aren't always about to throw themselves at her and try to rip her to pieces, which had been her experience in life until dog parks. People are alway complaining about dogs that run up to their dogs... you could always try to habituate your dog to dogs that race up. It worked for Kivi, and even Penny after her very unpleasant experiences with charging dogs. No doubt it won't work for every dog, but it seems preferable to me than simply ranting about "rude" dog behaviour and your inability to avoid it. For the record, Penny doesn't like dogs racing up to her even when they are friendly. But she's not terrified of it because she knows they'll leave her alone if she's close to me. It helps that Kivi likes to go out to meet them nowadays, so they don't usually pay much attention to Penny.

But once again (and apologies for repeating myself as I mentioned this in your other thread) some of us aren't comfortable with taking the risk that our dogs can diffuse a dangerous situation or risk thinking that very few dogs that display signs of aggression are actually going to aggress, and let our dogs approach them just to test that theory.

I'm not going to muck around with dogs who display aggressive behaviour in the hope of 'habituating' my dog to their bad behaviour. You may not think that signs like posturing, hackles up, teeth bared, tail up and waving slowly etc are signs of aggression or a big danger signal but some of us do and will take serious action to avoid dogs displaying such body language.

You mentioned that Kivi can 'read' dog language very well and if confronted by a dog showing signs dominance/aggression or whatever, that he will throw himself on the ground in a submissive position, and this diffuses the situation. If you let Kivi run up to a rank aggressive dog like Micha and throw himself on the ground in submission it would make Micha more likely to aggress. He's more inclined to grab a dog and scruff it that is being submissive then he is a dog that stands it's ground. What would you do then? If you don't think that dogs displaying signs of aggression are likely to aggress then what happens if you let your dog approach it to handle the situation himself and the dog does attack? I can guarantee you that Kivi lying in a submissive position would not save him if he encountered a dog that was rank aggressive.

Again it goes back to the risk we are willing to take, I would never let my dog approach a strange dog that was showing signs of aggression and I wouldn't rely on my dog to diffuse the situation. That is the point some of us are trying to make - we don't believe the risk to our dogs is worth it.

[corvus]

Everyone assesses risk differently. I don't think snakes are a big risk in my garden, either, but some folks kill them on sight. Then again, I think feeding kibble is a big risk and won't do it. Other folks see no real risk in that. It's hard to judge someone else's risk assessment. You don't know everything they do about the situation. You don't have their experiences to help you make that assessment.

Obviously (I hope) I wouldn't take high risks with my dogs, their safety, and their mental wellbeing. I love them too much for that. I have judged the risk of aggressive postures leading to serious aggression based on my experiences over the last 13 years or so. I have certainly added the experiences of others to my risk assessment. I have judged the risk of aggressive actions leading to long-term fear-related behavioural problems and added that into the mix. If I had found a dog park or beach where aggression happened at a higher rate than it does everywhere else, I wouldn't go. If I had a dog that I felt was more likely to react badly to the environment at the dog parks I go to I wouldn't take them. It's a no-brainer.

But I don't see a need to propagate fear about aggressive dogs and dog parks. I do see a lot of value in socialisation. I don't care if you choose not to socialise at a dog park. I did and it all worked out perfectly fine. I don't care if you choose to neutralise - I won't unless I really want to squash something out of my dog from the word go. But none of that changes the benefits that SOME dog parks and beaches offer and the bnefits that socialisation can offer. Nothing is right for every dog, but socialisation and dog parks are not, IMO, wrong for every dog.

ETA I lived with a dog that launched attacks with very little warning and no bite inhibition for several years. She was not normal and her behaviour was far from usual. It was horrifying and dangerous. I got damn good at diving in milliseconds before she errupted, but if I wasn't close enough I couldn't stop her. I have no defence against a dog like that and I don't know anyone who does. She's the only one I've met. She was an angel most of the time and played well with other dogs most of the time. A dog like that could turn up anywhere, anytime. I doubt Penny would see it coming and she wouldn't be able to stop it anyway. Is the small chance of meeting a dog like that in the dog park enough to make me decide to deny Kivi the fun he has there all the time? Nope. I take the risk of meeting a dog like that every time I step out of the yard with my dogs.

Edited May 6, 2009 by corvus

[dee lee]

Why do you think it is a small chance your dog will meet one like that?

I saw quite a few in the few months I took my dog to the local offleash.

I really hope you stay lucky and dont end up regretting your cavalier attitude.

Edited May 6, 2009 by ✽deelee

[corvus]

Why do you think it is a small chance your dog will meet one like that?

I saw quite a few in the few months I took my dog to the local offleash.

And that is your experience. Mine is I haven't met a single one at an off leash park or beach in 13 years. Experiences, by their nature, can't be wrong.

[Kavik]

Everyone assesses risk differently. I don't think snakes are a big risk in my garden, either, but some folks kill them on sight. Then again, I think feeding

But I don't see a need to propagate fear about aggressive dogs and dog parks. I do see a lot of value in socialisation. I don't care if you choose not to socialise at a dog park. I did and it all worked out perfectly fine. I don't care if you choose to neutralise - I won't unless I really want to squash something out of my dog from the word go. But none of that changes the benefits that SOME dog parks and beaches offer and the bnefits that socialisation can offer. Nothing is right for every dog, but socialisation and dog parks are not, IMO, wrong for every dog.

And I did the same thing and it went pear shaped and I now have a dog aggressive dog who does not like ANY dogs and who I cannot take places, train or compete with :rolleyes: I hope you never have to learn this the way I did, I would not wish it on anyone.

[poodlefan]

Experiences, by their nature, can't be wrong.

No, but they can be limited. Don't confuse good luck with good risk management Corvus.. but you'd not be the first to do so.

Look if I had a large, non-reactive dog I'd probably risk the dog parks too. I don't because that's not the kind of dog I have.

I really hope you never have the bad luck to have your dog involved in a fight at a dog park. All it takes is one dog to create an all in melee. Bear in mind that as Kivi ages, his ability to cope will diminish.

[Erny]

Whilst I think we learn much off our own dogs I think it is dangerous to blinker to only learning off those experiences. Listening to and learning from the experiences of others and the situations they occurred in and under (and taking them into consideration when you work with your own dog) would widen your perspective and may prove to stand in good stead anytime in the future, for you and for your own dog.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Erny

[m-j]

I really hope you never have the bad luck to have your dog involved in a fight at a dog park. All it takes is one dog to create an all in melee. Bear in mind that as Kivi ages, his ability to cope will diminish.

I agree, just because they haven't done it the first or the hundredth meeting doesn't mean it won't happen, even with dogs that know each other, familiarity can breed contempt.

With the aging thing is it they can't or just can't be bothered. I also work in the hospitality industry as a young person I would try to dissipate an altercation passively I know myself I'm a lot less tolerant than I used to be, not because I've lost an ability just can't be bothered now I have just about zero tolerance to idiots.

cheers

M-J

[yellowgirl]

I was told by lots of people that I 'must' get back to the dog park, not only for myself, but that it would be good for Madeline and her confidence (the socialising theory).

Taking your dog to a Dog Park is not socialising. It is throwing your dog in at the deep end and hoping he can swim.

What you are doing with Madelaine sounds more like socialising. Controlled environment and happy experiences.

I am very sorry about the loss of Chester, and glad that you found a little girl who needs you.

Thank you for your kind words Aussienot.

Different things work for different dogs. My job is to make sure that my girl is happy, secure, confident and safe. So for us, no dog park ... it's not even an option anymore!

I actually feel liberated!!

Thank you!

this is the best lesson we can all learn (my bolding in above).

i am glad you feel liberated. trust your instincts and know that what works for some dogs may not work for yours. as i said before i will never take my dog to a dog park as the risks outweigh the rewards IMO.

Thanks Jaxx'sBuddy. A park full of dogs is just not for Madeline.

Corvus, I understand why you take your dog to a dog park. For the same reason everyone else who uses them does.. to let your dog play with doggy friends and to run and have fun. The same reasons I used to take Chester. He just loved it!! I did worry about some of the other dogs sometimes (and their clueless owners). I always left if certain dogs arrived, it wasn't worth the risk. I trusted Chester, but I didn't always trust all the other dogs.

[Kaz]

With dog rescue and constant fostering, my own dogs had better be bloody social or I will have something to say about it ;)

No time for dog parks or worrying about socialisation in rescue. One of my dogs was a pup when I started fostering. He has seen a couple of hundred dogs come through here and he has become the most well adjusted adult because of it.

I will take any and every opportunity to socialise mine with strange dogs.

[standardpoodle]

Hi, It sounds like a lot of boerbaul to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!