Too Much Socialisation

[corvus]

*sigh* I'm not going to answer everything because I agree to disagree with you.

I know this from experience. I spend a lot of time around wild animals and have one as a pet. Frighten them and they become wary of you. Dogs are no different in that, but you are right that they don't do the obvious wild animal thing. It's easy to assume that because they don't run or bite you they trust you just as much as they always have.

K9: Dogs aren't wild animals, wild animals wont go up to other wild animals to play that they don't know, their thresholds to defence are much lower than dogs (due to domestication).

Uh huh, I'm aware of that. It's why I like having dogs. They are so freaking forgiving. They naturally want to spend time with me. It's like a holiday. Still, dogs are animals and there are similarities. Before I'd raised a wild animal myself I didn't recognise the diminished trust in my own dog. My guess is you won't see it. Doesn't mean it's not there.

A. Not all dogs start off by looking aggressive, play can turn aggressive.

B. Your dog may not have read the other dog correctly & look quite ok a millisecond before it is attacked.

C. Three dogs tearing yours apart means no matter how close you are, you cant do a whole lot. Like I said, many don't start aggressive, they turn that way in a flash & I would wonder just how much fun it is if you have to stand on guard waiting for trouble the whole time?

D. A dog that doesn't scare easily or recovers from a scare? But above you said that dogs will lose trust in you if you frighten them?

Now it is ok to frighten them if they recover fast? I am a bit lost in your train of thought.

You have also neglected to tell us what will happen when your dog comes up against a rank dog, the one you described above is defensive/fearful.

All the things you have brought up could happen anywhere. I've seen C happen on my driveway, although thankfully my dog was safely behind it all with me. No one got hurt, but one of the 5 dogs involved was the one that bit my mother in trying to get to my dog once. I've been to loads of dog parks and beaches at really busy times and I've never seen anything that has been as scary and potentially dangerous as the things I've seen just walking my dogs on leash around the neighbourhood.

Play that turns aggressive is hard to pick because sometimes the dogs are just being rough and noisy. If you are scared of it then I guess it's a worry and a risk. I've only stepped in once because I've thought that play is turning aggressive and it was much like the video you showed only the dogs were about the same size. It only happened because my dog is an idiot that will put up with anything to play. She tried it on a few other dogs and they all walked away and she left it. So I do think it is a risk for my particular dog, but every time I've seen it it's been easy to put a stop to it and calm everyone down. They go right back to playing nicely afterwards.

If YOU frighten a dog they will lose trust in you. If another dog frightens them they don't lose trust in you, unless you round on them and shout at them for it or something. Personally, I don't like to see my dogs frightened at all, but sometimes it happens anyway. I think if my dog was able to grasp the concept of "would you rather we never went to the dog park so that you never get scared" he would answer "god no! Bring on the puppers!" If we went to the park 100 times he might get scared, say, 4 times. The other 96 times were funfunfun. If we went 100 times and he got scared 20 times, I'd be questioning if we should keep going with him, because he's a resilient little man. For some dogs getting scared 4% of the time is too much.

The rank dog wont air snap, it wont be trying to shoo your do away but to dominate it. If your dog runs away, the rank dog is as likely to chase it down & pin it, see the video at the bottom.

My dog wouldn't run away. Penny wouldn't go near it in the first place and Kivi would be belly up looking away and with his tail tucked and ears back. Even Penny, who is a snarky old so-and-so these days, would absolutely display full submission to a so-called rank aggressive dog. She's not suicidal. She has always known who she can snap at and who she needs to beg not to hurt her. Kivi knows, too, and knew from an early age without much experience. Once or twice Penny has been surprised by a dog coming out out of nowhere and chasing her. Again, not something that usually happens and not something I think you can guard against without never taking your dog off leash. It can happen anywhere.

But that's all beside the point. The scenario in the video didn't look that bad to me. It was hard to see details, but the dog didn't look to me like it intended to hurt anyone. This is why you don't take dogs that scare easy to dog parks.

K9: Anthropomorphism (the humanising of dogs) is the creation of many do problems, your dog doesn't think that way. They work on an associated value system & not much else, but say this section is true, in your last paragraph you took your dog to a park to let him play with other dogs, he got to look it a bit too much, so you took that away & did something else?

How would a human like that?

As my dog isn't human it's a moot point. My dogs don't link events that happen more than ten seconds apart.

I always get caught out anthropomorphising because I find it an easy way to describe things and people think I actually think that's what has happened. My apologies. To make it clear, my dog was starting to find trips to the dog park very exciting and his recall was slipping. I cut back the trips to the dog park and made a few trips to quiet places without dogs instead where we ran around and played with the dog and practised recalls with fewer distractions. Dogs are creatures of habit, as you would know. If every time I take them out we go to the dog park, it gets to the point where they anticipate it and you only have to put them in the car for them to start getting excited and it all feeds off itself and escalates the more it is reinforced. By taking them somewhere else I break that cycle. They can still enjoy the dog park when we go, but they are not anticipating it and don't get as excited. Add to that, I've established a new habit with my dogs. Sometimes when we are out we have fun together without other dogs. People are fun too. This is something that works with wild animals as well. My hare gets himself into nervous loops of behaviour sometimes where one action just serves to reinforce the feeling of nervousness and leads to an escalated response, which reinforces the nervousness more and when something finally happens it gets locked in his little head as BADBADBAD. To stop it from happening you have to break the cycle and establish new habits. It's the same with excitement. Excitement and nervousness are almost the same thing to my hare. Thankfully, it's different in dogs, but loops can still happen and I don't much like them. Animals in behaviour loops tend to switch off and it's hard to break into the loop to change the behaviour. So I put a stop to them when I see them forming.

All this means I think it's important not to turn trips to the dog park into a habit.

K9, I am supremely confident in my interpretation of the behaviour of my animals. You can come look at them any day and if I disagree with you I'd tell you to your face and explain why and I'd be very hard to convince otherwise because you and I have some pretty different ideas about the origin of behaviour and naturally I think you're wrong, as you think I'm wrong and would also be supremely confident in your interpretation and difficult to convince otherwise.

If you depend on neutralisation, what do you do if you are walking your dog on leash down the street and a dog without an owner comes trotting up to you, hackles up, tail up, ears forward, eyes staring, growling? This has happened to me too many times to count on the street, but I would say probably about 3 or 4 times at the dog park/off leash beach. When I see this dog coming at us, I am relatively calm because I know my dogs can defuse this situation all on their own. Penny has NEVER in her life been unable to defuse this situation. Which means she has never been attacked in this situation. She's never even been snapped at in this situation, and nor has Kivi. Every time she's been attacked it's been on the street when she's on leash and nothing we could do about it.

In my 13 years of dog ownership I've seen a lot of tense situations and very few of them have had much risk of anyone being injured. People seem to forget that aggression in dogs is largely ritualised. Now bunnies, when they fight they set out to do damage and they can and do kill each other. If they start fighting you have to stop it as soon as possible every time. They don't mess around with all the noise and show that dogs do. Dogs are like rattlesnakes. Every capability of causing serious damage or even killing, but rarely do it without warning.

[huski]

Just to comment on the video: it may not look like that much to someone who hasn't seen that behaviour before but it made me feel a bit anxious watching it. Micha is fear aggressive but he is also capable of rank aggression towards submissive dogs or puppies. I've seen him act like the dog in the video when I used to take him to the dog park, except that he would chase down more submissive dogs, grab them by the scruff of the neck and pin them to the ground. He never injured them and because I was a naive inexperienced dog owner, I believed the regulars at the park whose dogs did it too and told me it was normal dog behaviour.

The behaviour the dog showed in the video above can escalate in less than a second, I've seen my own dog do it. I've seen a 'pack' of dogs at a dog park all chase down a smaller dog much like the one in the video. I would stay well away from any dog I saw exhibiting behaviour like the bigger dog in the video or similar.

Edited April 30, 2009 by huski

[Quickasyoucan]

Just to comment on the video: it may not look like that much to someone who hasn't seen that behaviour before but it made me feel a bit anxious watching it. Micha is fear aggressive but he is also capable of rank aggression towards submissive dogs or puppies. I've seen him act like the dog in the video when I used to take him to the dog park, except that he would chase down more submissive dogs, grab them by the scruff of the neck and pin them to the ground. He never injured them and because I was a naive inexperienced dog owner, I believed the regulars at the park whose dogs did it too and told me it was normal dog behaviour.

The behaviour the dog showed in the video above can escalate in less than a second, I've seen my own dog do it. I've seen a 'pack' of dogs at a dog park all chase down a smaller dog much like the one in the video. I would stay well away from any dog I saw exhibiting behaviour like the bigger dog in the video or similar.

Huski it made me anxious too, I've seen my dog exhibit similar behaviour towards dogs who are bigger than him off lead like that when he was younger and I knew no better, he would go up with the "sabre tail" and basically start stalking them, usually it would be an undesexed male he just became particularly obssessed with. It happened rarely as usually he is not that interested in other dogs but it did happen. Luckly for me it never progressed to a fight or pinning, but the potential was definitely there and it was indeed probably only luck that it didn't.

I have also seen the the rush of dogs over to where a fight is happening, all of a sudden the energy buzz goes up and a dog-on dog fight becomes a pack brawl.

I have also seen high level play suddenly turn into a scuffle, staffords play rough and there is an edge to it.

I think most of us have probably been guilty in letting our dogs play too rough, hindsight is a beautiful thing, but I do hope that I didn't cause any dogs any psychological damage and it's certainly something I am wary of now. You live and learn...

Edited April 30, 2009 by Quickasyoucan

[huski]

I think most of us have probably been guilty in letting our dogs play too rough, hindsight is a beautiful thing, but I do hope that I didn't cause any dogs any psychological damage and it's certainly something I am wary of now. You live and learn...

I worry about the same thing

I used to think because he never injured them that they were ok. The same thing happened to him when he was a puppy (being pinned to the ground) and I thought he'd gotten over it, now I wonder if it was learned behaviour and I feel sick in the stomach to think what behaviorial issues may have arised with dogs he did it to. This was going back 2-3 years ago and I would never let him display the behaviour again but I do feel terribly guilty that I didn't know how bad it was

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Uh huh, I'm aware of that. It's why I like having dogs. They are so freaking forgiving. They naturally want to spend time with me. It's like a holiday. Still, dogs are animals and there are similarities. Before I'd raised a wild animal myself I didn't recognise the diminished trust in my own dog. My guess is you won't see it. Doesn't mean it's not there.

K9: What do they forgive? What do they need to forgive you for?

How did you diminish the trust? & if they are forgiving, why is it (the diminished trust) still there, even though I cant see it?

Whilst there are similarities, I bet you don't take your wild Hare to the Dog park?

C: All the things you have brought up could happen anywhere. I've seen C happen on my driveway, although thankfully my dog was safely behind it all with me. No one got hurt, but one of the 5 dogs involved was the one that bit my mother in trying to get to my dog once.

K9: they will never happen when there is only one dog.... Now if this can happen in your driveway, cant you see that a dog park full of dogs has a much higher elevated risk?

C: I've been to loads of dog parks and beaches at really busy times and I've never seen anything that has been as scary and potentially dangerous as the things I've seen just walking my dogs on leash around the neighbourhood. Play that turns aggressive is hard to pick because sometimes the dogs are just being rough and noisy. If you are scared of it then I guess it's a worry and a risk. I've only stepped in once because I've thought that play is turning aggressive and it was much like the video you showed only the dogs were about the same size.

K9: Ok? but what your describing is your experience, there is no guarantee that the next time you go to the dog park, trouble wont arrive just after you. Do you think the dogs were playing in the video?

C: It only happened because my dog is an idiot that will put up with anything to play.

K9: This is my point exactly, why would your dog put up with anything? IT HAS TOO HIGH A VALUE FOR THE PLAY.

Your are the perfect example of why neutralisation is much safer for dogs...

This last sentence only stands to prove that your dog wont read another dog & stay away, it wont back off at the first sign of aggression, because it is too intent on getting what it wants to notice the other dog just doesn't want to play.

C: She tried it on a few other dogs and they all walked away and she left it. So I do think it is a risk for my particular dog, but every time I've seen it it's been easy to put a stop to it and calm everyone down. They go right back to playing nicely afterwards.

K9: "Your particular dog"? That's what you have been using as evidence that your way does work?

Now your dog isn't a good example of your way?

C: Personally, I don't like to see my dogs frightened at all, but sometimes it happens anyway.

K9: Because your at the dog park perhaps? lol..

I think if my dog was able to grasp the concept of "would you rather we never went to the dog park so that you never get scared" he would answer "god no! Bring on the puppers!"

K9: I know you think that... But as dogs are incapable of that type of thought, what you think he would say is what you want to hear.

C: If we went to the park 100 times he might get scared, say, 4 times. The other 96 times were funfunfun. If we went 100 times and he got scared 20 times, I'd be questioning if we should keep going with him, because he's a resilient little man. For some dogs getting scared 4% of the time is too much.

K9: Ok so your limit is 20%, what is your dogs? Oops w=he cant tell you. I know dogs that have changed the way they view other dogs after one attack, previously they played 1000 times.

Would you apply the same rule to crossing a highway with your eyes closed, you only get killed once, the rest of the time its just dumb dumb dumb. lol.

C: My dog wouldn't run away. Penny wouldn't go near it in the first place and Kivi would be belly up looking away and with his tail tucked and ears back.

K9: & then the rank dog attacks anyway, what now?

C: Even Penny, who is a snarky old so-and-so these days, would absolutely display full submission to a so-called rank aggressive dog.

K9: she would or does? Are you typing what you want to believe will happen?

C: She's not suicidal.

K9: dog not capable of suicide. :D

C: But that's all beside the point. The scenario in the video didn't look that bad to me.

K9: And I guess that explains it pretty well, I would have that happen to my dog, it isn't fun, it isn't safe & if the little dog wasn't fast it may be injured or dead, hardly a fun walk in the park.

The on lookers don't agree with you either based on their comments.

C: It was hard to see details, but the dog didn't look to me like it intended to hurt anyone. This is why you don't take dogs that scare easy to dog parks.

K9: OOO kayy... The larger dog was attempting to maul the smaller dog, MAUL.

C: As my dog isn't human it's a moot point. My dogs don't link events that happen more than ten seconds apart.

K9: who wears the watch, you or the dog? ten seconds ... hilarious.

C: To make it clear, my dog was starting to find trips to the dog park very exciting and his recall was slipping.

K9: Hmm, thats what I said happens.

C: I cut back the trips to the dog park and made a few trips to quiet places without dogs instead where we ran around and played with the dog and practised recalls with fewer distractions.

K9: or in other words, you took him to play with dogs until it compromised his obedience, then you had to retrain it.. I think that is what I have been saying all along.

You summed up pretty much in this post that the things I warn against have all happened to you, including your dog getting so intent on playing, it wont back off from an aggressive dog, there have been fights, you have diminished the trust & the obedience of your dog suffered by your actions.

Now that you have yourself written this I wonder if it is more clear to you or will you still explain things off as you just want things to be the way you want them, even if they are not.

C: If you depend on neutralisation, what do you do if you are walking your dog on leash down the street and a dog without an owner comes trotting up to you, hackles up, tail up, ears forward, eyes staring, growling?

K9: I stand out in front of my dog & chase the otehr dog away. That is the job of the Alpha.

C: In my 13 years of dog ownership I've seen a lot of tense situations and very few of them have had much risk of anyone being injured

K9: well yeah but that's coming from someone who thinks that video is perfectly fine.

C: People seem to forget that aggression in dogs is largely ritualised. Now bunnies, when they fight they set out to do damage and they can and do kill each other. If they start fighting you have to stop it as soon as possible every time. They don't mess around with all the noise and show that dogs do. Dogs are like rattlesnakes. Every capability of causing serious damage or even killing, but rarely do it without warning.

K9: Dogs aren't rabbits, bunnies or rattle snakes & they are not like either of them no matter how much you want them to be.

You know what they are like though? dogs.

Good luck Corvus..

[huski]

K9: Dogs aren't rabbits, bunnies or rattle snakes & they are not like either of them no matter how much you want them to be.

You know what they are like though? dogs.

Steve

[~*Shell*~]

I have people here every day tell me what their dogs do & why, when it is explained to them the real reason & what the dog is really feeling, often they agree instantly saying that makes a lot of sense.

I have to say that until Steve explained to me the reason why Zero acted the way he did and how his mind worked, I had absolutely no idea. I mean, I thought i did but i was very wrong. I had been told a lot of things and while they made complete sense to me, those ideas humanised Zero and in practice, the training techniques I was using before I met Steve only made him worse. It wasn't until I became the alpha and showed him that he didn't have to be aggressive to other dogs because I would take care of the situation that he stopped being reactive to every dog we came across.

What I hadn't been able to do in 18 months of work, under Steve's instruction, we were able to have Zero sit there and look at me while another dog lunged aggressively at him within 6 weeks, he could have dogs jump all over him in 8 weeks without reaction though I don't let that happen. He's now so much happier because he doesn't have to be on edge and on the look out for other dogs and our bond is 100 times stronger because he knows that I make good things happen. I'm so grateful that I had someone explain to me that a dog is a dog and there's nothing wrong with treating him like a dog - he's happy to be one!

(btw Steve, I meant to email you. Guess who is now in the advanced class (he graduated last week) at obedience and can work off lead for over an hour with full focus on me like the other dogs aren't even there? Zero and I walk all the time and he's lost nearly 10 kilos since we saw you last because of it!)

[Steve K9Pro]

(btw Steve, I meant to email you. Guess who is now in the advanced class (he graduated last week) at obedience and can work off lead for over an hour with full focus on me like the other dogs aren't even there? Zero and I walk all the time and he's lost nearly 10 kilos since we saw you last because of it!)

K9: I have no doubt! Your a winner & Zero is now a winner too...

An absolute dream client...

[~*Shell*~]

Thanks Steve!

[Miranda]

K9: Dogs aren't rabbits, bunnies or rattle snakes & they are not like either of them no matter how much you want them to be.

You know what they are like though? dogs.

Good luck Corvus..

Well said Steve

Game, set and match to K9 I believe

[J...]

Steve, well said :p

[MonElite]

quesion for the orginal poster.

Which club lets you use prong collar in class?

[corvus]

Did the dog in the video get hurt, K9? Didn't look like it to me. I've seen that happen a couple of times and no dogs got hurt then, either.

Your arguments are circuitous and depend on the small percentage of dogs that actually do set out to hurt other dogs. My arguments depend on the majority of dogs that don't set out to hurt other dogs.

My dog did not get into something with an aggressive dog because his value on other dogs was too high. The dog in question was not aggressive. She did not hurt my dog. She did not intend to hurt my dog. She did not threaten my dog. She frightened him a little before I got there and I hope it taught him a lesson. If it doesn't, no biggy. I'm confident that next time it won't be an aggressive dog. I don't see many of those and when I do my dogs stay away from them. I love that about my dogs.

Socialisation is hardly "my method". It's been around for a long time and worked for a lot of dogs. I've said that it doesn't work for all dogs, but the dogs it does work for are fine and happy and safe. I've met a few hundred of them. I don't think everyone should socialise their dogs, I just don't think neutralisation is a particularly nice thing to do to dogs. Especially when I can't even figure out if it's the danger of dog parks you are scared of or the dogs at dog parks that love playing so much they don't always come when called.

However you want to interpret what I've said, the facts still remain:

1. My Penny has NEVER done anything to provoke a fight from a strange dog (besides being in the wrong place at the wrong time - which was NOT a dog park or a dog beach) and has NEVER failed to defuse a tense situation. She's 13. She's seen a lot. I don't call charging up a tense situation. That one's already out of control and it's panic stations. Also never happened at a dog park.

2. Kivi has been approached by one aggressive dog in his life and he froze and defused that situation without anyone getting hurt.

3. Kivi has never run up to another dog that didn't want to be run up to.

4. The vast majority of aggressive dogs and tense situations I have seen have happened on the streets, not in the dog park.

5. You keep saying my dog's value for other dogs is too high, but he comes when called and still loves to play. I know a lot of dogs that also come when called and love to play.

6. On the other hand, I know dogs that haven't been socialised and they are confused, tense, worried little canines around other dogs.

Lots of trainers recommend puppy pre-school. Lots of trainers recommend socialising. I go with the lots rather than the one, although I do see where you're coming from and where it might be a better route.

Edited April 30, 2009 by corvus

[Kavik]

Did the dog in the video get hurt, K9? Didn't look like it to me. I've seen that happen a couple of times and no dogs got hurt then, either.

A dog does not have to get hurt for the incident to have a long lasting effect on its temperament or its attitude towards other dogs. If you read my post, I don't think Zoe was ever hurt at the dog park, but her experiences there (the usual stuff that happens at parks - rushed at, run into, growled at, possibly humped, jumped on, etc no worse than any other dog park) was one factor in her becoming aggressive towards other dogs. For the rest of her life. Like dislikes ALL other dogs and taking her for walks can be stressful in case we meet one.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Did the dog in the video get hurt, K9? Didn't look like it to me. I've seen that happen a couple of times and no dogs got hurt then, either.

K9: Physically or mentally? I feel you think that only physical harm is the risk here. As you like to explain things in human terms, if the little dog in the video was a child, what that be ok as long as the child wasnt physically hurt?

C: Your arguments are circuitous and depend on the small percentage of dogs that actually do set out to hurt other dogs. My arguments depend on the majority of dogs that don't set out to hurt other dogs.

K9: what is the small percentage? Perhaps if you sat in my consult room for a week that percentage wouldn't be as small as you think.

C: Socialisation is hardly "my method". It's been around for a long time and worked for a lot of dogs.

K9: Our social environment has changed & dogs have evolved, yes that method has been around for a long time, just like hitting a dog on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, we know better now.

C: I've said that it doesn't work for all dogs, but the dogs it does work for are fine and happy and safe. I've met a few hundred of them.

K9: You also see nothing wrong in that video, you feel that dogs are safe as long as they physically are & you have admitted that your own dog socialised in your method will do anything to play & that your obedience has been compromised.

There really isn't anything else you need to say..

The risks of what you do are mental injury, not physical, compromised obedience, dogs invading other dogs space, lack of respect for the owner & of course physical injury.

C: I don't think everyone should socialise their dogs, I just don't think neutralisation is a particularly nice thing to do to dogs.

K9: Based on? You have never done it?

C: Especially when I can't even figure out if it's the danger of dog parks you are scared of or the dogs at dog parks that love playing so much they don't always come when called.

K9: It is not a fear of either, it is an avoidance of both when they serve no purpose only to add negativity to the bond between dog & human.

If you haven't figured that out in the numerous times I have written it I don't know how many more times & or ways I can write it...

C: Lots of trainers recommend puppy pre-school. Lots of trainers recommend socialising. I go with the lots rather than the one,

K9: Lots of people steal, murder & rape... is that how you tell the best thing to do? If lots of people do it? lol...

Perhaps it would be best if you read the original thread again & take into consideration the people on that thread & this one that have said that they will neutralise next time because X happened to their dog this time.

For the record, no one here is being asked to neutralise their dogs, neither method is sure fire means to success, I believe that done correctly, neutralisation stands a much greater chance of keeping your dogs temperament safe & having a better bonded dog that respects you & is obedient.

This opinion comes from someone who has socialised many dogs in both ways & has the finger on the pulse of what is going on in our world rather than just my back yard.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

Lots of trainers recommend puppy pre-school. Lots of trainers recommend socialising. I go with the lots rather than the one, although I do see where you're coming from and where it might be a better route.

Yes, lots of trainers do. Lots of trainers recommend controlled socialisation and get a lot of business from dog park related created behaviours too. Vets do a steady business stitching up the dogs unlucky enough to meet the types of dogs you have yet to encounter.

If you can provide a refererence to a trainer who suggests that walking into a crowded dog park with your dog and letting it loose into a free for all is a recommended method of socialisation, then I'd love to see it.

One of the most telling (and common behvaviours) in that video comes from the owners of the aggressive dog. They did NOTHING to control their dog.. not a damn thing, even when the smaller dog owner had her dog up off the ground. No doubt they shrugged their shoulders, made some disparaging comment about small dog owners and went on as usual.

You are lucky Corvus, you have dogs that appear to be good diffusers of situations and they are large enough not to draw prey responses from other dogs. The only other Finnish Lapphund I have met had the same attributes. Your experience is not universal, as many of the dog trainers here can vouch for. Perhaps the differing opinions from yours are based on a wider range of experiences? The fact that you haven't personally witnessed a serious aggression incident in a dog park does not prove your assertion that their occurence is very rare. The experiences and anedotes related here attest to that.

Edited April 30, 2009 by poodlefan

[huski]

Did the dog in the video get hurt, K9? Didn't look like it to me. I've seen that happen a couple of times and no dogs got hurt then, either.

From my experience, as the owner of a dog who has behaved in a similar fashion, it is behave that can easily escalate into something more serious. I used to think the same thing too Corvus, when other dogs pinned Micha to the ground when he was young (and when he eventually did it to other dogs) - 'it's ok because they aren't physically hurt'. Unfortunately there is more to it than physical injury, a dog might be physically fine but mentally scarred instead.

[Staranais]

C: If you depend on neutralisation, what do you do if you are walking your dog on leash down the street and a dog without an owner comes trotting up to you, hackles up, tail up, ears forward, eyes staring, growling?

K9: I stand out in front of my dog & chase the otehr dog away. That is the job of the Alpha.

I've been following this thread with real interest (pre-puppy research!), and have one question to ask please. I definately understand the benefit of socialising a dog to have a low value for other animals and non-family humans, especially if it's going to be a working or competition dog (which is what I'm after), I don't need to be convinced about that! And I understand the risk that indiscriminate socialisation can pose to a dog's temperament, if it gets attacked or scared by another dog.

What I'm wondering about is whether neutralised dogs are as good at coping with interactions with strange dogs as most "socialised" dogs are? From what I've read here, it seems that a conventionally socialised dog may have participated in and seen many more dog-dog interactions than a neutralised dog will have. So will the conventionally socalised dog be more able to de-escalate problems by itself, rather than reacting inappropriately? ie, will the socialised dog be more capable at "talking dog" than the neutralised dog is?

I should clarify that I'm not talking about chucking your dog into a dog park and letting the dog sort out any problems by itself (some people may be able to get away with that sort of thing, but one severely dog aggressive dog was enough for me.) I won't be routinely relying on my dog to deal with strange dogs by herself - I know that this is my job as alpha.

I'm just talking about the situations during the life of your dog where having your dog around other strange dogs will be unavoidable, or will accidentally occur, even if it's just for a few seconds:

e.g. you're out hiking with your dog in the bush, with your dog running 10m ahead of you, and suddenly you run around the corner into another group of hikers with their dog running ahead. Or e.g your dog needs to be transported with other dogs (in the back of a van) on occasion without you being right there. If the other dog is rude or pushy or aggressive towards your dog, will a "socialised" dog be more able to diffuse the situation than a "neutralised" dog, due to having more practice at communicating with other dogs?

Is this an issue, or am I over thinking things? I'd welcome answers from both K9 Force and anyone who has done his puppy neutralisation program before.

[Quickasyoucan]

Did the dog in the video get hurt, K9? Didn't look like it to me. I've seen that happen a couple of times and no dogs got hurt then, either.

From my experience, as the owner of a dog who has behaved in a similar fashion, it is behave that can easily escalate into something more serious. I used to think the same thing too Corvus, when other dogs pinned Micha to the ground when he was young (and when he eventually did it to other dogs) - 'it's ok because they aren't physically hurt'. Unfortunately there is more to it than physical injury, a dog might be physically fine but mentally scarred instead.

Not only that, Huski as you mention above there is picking up bad habits.

When I first took my dog to the offleash there was one particular dog that used to grab the collar in play, didn't take long for my dog to pick that up as an effective means of getting control over a bigger dog. Took me ages and ages to to stop that particular behaviour and it doesn't make you popular with other owners when your dog makes a bee-line for the neck. They think your dog is trying to kill theirs not pull its collar.

As I said before, and with the benefit of hindsight, I now question why do we want our dogs to play with strangers? We don't encourage our children to play with strangers (anthropomorphising here I know). Why, because the variables are too great, how do you know what that person is going to be like? Same applies to strange dogs, as far as I am concerned?

There are already too many variables in this world, if you can take control of a few why not?

The problem with dog parks is that they are not controlled environments, everyone's interpretation of "effective control" is different and a lot of people couldn't give a stuff if their dog plays too rough with your nervous dog, because they are "just dogs".

Personally I prefer to mind my own business and my dog's these days, saves a whole world of trouble.

[Kavik]

I've been following this thread with real interest (pre-puppy research!), and have one question to ask please. I definately understand the benefit of socialising a dog to have a low value for other animals and non-family humans, especially if it's going to be a working or competition dog (which is what I'm after), I don't need to be convinced about that! And I understand the risk that indiscriminate socialisation can pose to a dog's temperament, if it gets attacked or scared by another dog.

What I'm wondering about is whether neutralised dogs are as good at coping with interactions with strange dogs as most "socialised" dogs are? From what I've read here, it seems that a conventionally socialised dog may have participated in and seen many more dog-dog interactions than a neutralised dog will have. So will the conventionally socalised dog be more able to de-escalate problems by itself, rather than reacting inappropriately? ie, will the socialised dog be more capable at "talking dog" than the neutralised dog is?

I should clarify that I'm not talking about chucking your dog into a dog park and letting the dog sort out any problems by itself (some people may be able to get away with that sort of thing, but one severely dog aggressive dog was enough for me.) I won't be routinely relying on my dog to deal with strange dogs by herself - I know that this is my job as alpha.

I'm just talking about the situations during the life of your dog where having your dog around other strange dogs will be unavoidable, or will accidentally occur, even if it's just for a few seconds:

e.g. you're out hiking with your dog in the bush, with your dog running 10m ahead of you, and suddenly you run around the corner into another group of hikers with their dog running ahead. Or e.g your dog needs to be transported with other dogs (in the back of a van) on occasion without you being right there. If the other dog is rude or pushy or aggressive towards your dog, will a "socialised" dog be more able to diffuse the situation than a "neutralised" dog, due to having more practice at communicating with other dogs?

Is this an issue, or am I over thinking things? I'd welcome answers from both K9 Force and anyone who has done his puppy neutralisation program before.

This is a really good question, and one I hope K9 Force answers. I have asked similar questions myself.

I plan to carefully socialise my next dog, choose who he/she interacts with carefully (certainly no rough play at dog park, instead meet with friends dogs who I know etc), but at the moment don't think I will neutralise.