Too Much Socialisation

[megan_]

but I don't think having dogs play with other dogs has any benefit.

Ever? Even if a dog is an only dog and the owner works 10 hours per day? There is no value at all in playing with another dog? What about enjoyment?

I don't ket my dog play with every dog we come across, but I'd hate to think of the life he would live if I never, ever once allowed him to play with another dog.

[huski]

but I don't think having dogs play with other dogs has any benefit.

Ever? Even if a dog is an only dog and the owner works 10 hours per day? There is no value at all in playing with another dog? What about enjoyment?

I don't ket my dog play with every dog we come across, but I'd hate to think of the life he would live if I never, ever once allowed him to play with another dog.

If you read K9's thread about neutralisation, it's not about the dog missing out on anything. The dog has plenty of stimulation, exercise, enjoyment etc - but the difference is that it comes through the owner not another dog.

A dog that is raised through neutralisation/socialisation just isn't interested in playing with other dogs, it's not that they want to and aren't allowed to. They don't see them as anything terribly exciting or of a high value.

[RL1]

Too Much Socialisation, should dogs socialise or not .............. I did have three Rottweilers, i only have two now, but my current female ( 9 years old now ) was socialised from an early age ( 3 months ) at the local dog park and she is the best natured, easy going, gets along with any other breed/size dog she meets. When i had the three rotts, i could take both my females to the dog park at anytime and let them off lead with any size dogs, from a Bullmastiff to a toy poodle and not have a problem.

Edited April 23, 2009 by RottyLover01

[Lablover]

I often wonder, in novice hands, too much socialisation, is simply not enough control/obedience?

[huski]

I often wonder, in novice hands, too much socialisation, is simply not enough control/obedience?

I tend to agree LL, I don't think there can be too much socialsation at all... after all there is a lot more to socialisation than a dog playing with another dog. I socialised Micha in the wrong way, not because he was socialisation too much, but the wrong way, with the wrong type of dogs, and I allowed the wrong behaviour to develop.

[corvus]

I do, however, think that Kivi has been slightly over-socialised. At the moment his ears perk up if a dog barks a block away when we are walking. He just wants to go find them in case they are friendly. Strange dogs have the biggest pull on him because he has met so many dogs and loved them. Having said that I would do the same thing if I had my time with him again. He is quite the social butterfly and may well have gone that way anyway.

Have you ever met a dog that is not friendly? What did you do? or what would you do?

Sure. At the moment I wouldn't trust Kivi to sensibly curb his enthusiasm, although the couple of times when he's been off leash when it has happened he has done just that. He's only met one dog I was worried would have him seriously and he was off leash at the time. He froze and kept his eyes down and ears flat and tail down and the dog calmed down and nothing happened. He gets snapped at all the time, but he hates it, so every time he gets snapped at is a lesson to him.

You have almost explained what i have been trying to.Why should your dog when walking with you WANT to go play with other dogs?

Because he is not a robot and his life does not revolve around me. I deliberately picked a breed with a streak of independence because I don't LIKE being the center of an animal's universe. It's a lot of pressure. I like that he loves other dogs. He is a dog himself, so it kinda makes sense, no? Each to their own. Personally, there are two things I simply love about owning dogs. One is taking them places they are crazy about and watching them enjoy themselves and the other is watching them interact with each other and other strange dogs and learning from them. If my dogs ignored other dogs then that's the two things I love most about dogs suddenly out of the equation.

Can u call him back if he runs to play ?

Yes. It's about 85% reliable at the moment, but he's only 12 months old. His recall is a work in progress and is improving all the time.

Who is to blame if he gets mauled?

There's no obvious answer to that as it would depend on the circumstances. If he gets mauled because he ran up to another dog and I couldn't call him back, then it's my fault. I think it unlikely to happen, though. He's not suicidal. He lives with a cranky old corgi. He knows what a dog that's going to have him looks like. He also doesn't run up to strange dogs. He stops a good ten metres short and does the last leg at an unintimidating dawdle with his head and tail down. At any rate, he gets limited off leash time until his recall is better.

Hope that clears it up. Ultimately, I don't want to be the center of my dog's world. I'm quite happy for him to go have fun with his own kind. It's not like we don't have heaps of fun together. I'm still someone he wants to spend time with and sometimes he even spends time with me rather than go meeting strange dogs. I am hoping he settles down as he gets older, but if he doesn't I won't mind. I want him to be himself as much as possible.

[Lablover]

I often wonder, in novice hands, too much socialisation, is simply not enough control/obedience?

I tend to agree LL, I don't think there can be too much socialsation at all... after all there is a lot more to socialisation than a dog playing with another dog. I socialised Micha in the wrong way, not because he was socialisation too much, but the wrong way, with the wrong type of dogs, and I allowed the wrong behaviour to develop.

I agree. My dogs could not care less, if other dogs are about, when they are turned/focused on their job/reward/desire.

[m-j]

Have the dog in question sit on lead and i would walk past the dog with fritz on lead of course.As soon as there was a sign of this aggression i would correct him.A light tug on his lead and a stern no does NOT take him out of his DRIVE.A firm correction and a loud no tells him its not right.Once he has returned to his normal self lots of praise.On the whole it takes about 5 passes before he no longer does it and problem solved.

So what do you do/ what does he do when there is no "Alpha aid" ie prong and lead on him when another dog approaches that isn't under control?

I believe when using corrections to stop aggro you are stopping the visual behaviour but not the dogs mindset. I personally don't see that as problem solved jmo.

cheers

M-J

Edited April 23, 2009 by m-j

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Well, one benefit of dogs playing with other dogs is physical activity.

K9: I met a guy once that said he stole ladies handbags because the running away was good exercise..

There are 10 000 ways to exercise your dog without the need for dog to dog play...

DA: Finally as K9 force wrote in one of his great posts

K9:I prefer to neutralise my dogs to everything accept me & what I can give the dog. So that is me, my affection, praise, pats, prey items & food that my dog finds valuable, not anything else

And that is what i aim for and believe am very close to it

K9: Thanks for the kind words, if your aiming at that, in my opinion that is a good direction, but I don't achieve that with corrections, you will most likely end up associating a negative value to other dogs & this may manifest in fear aggression.

You have to have a strategy that will have the dog come to the conclusion that other dogs just aren't that interesting.

This usually is best achieved by the dog in self discovery mode, not through avoidance training.

If the dog however already has a value to other dogs that is not desirable, & that value is a positive value, then a program that uses corrections may be the way to go, but not just correcting the dog when it looks at another dog.

That isnt so much a program as it is just a correction.

[corvus]

C: Well, one benefit of dogs playing with other dogs is physical activity.

K9: I met a guy once that said he stole ladies handbags because the running away was good exercise..

There are 10 000 ways to exercise your dog without the need for dog to dog play...

Really? But you missed the bit where I said Kivi isn't really into playing ball or tug. He goes for jogs with us, but not everyone likes jogging, either. I didn't say playing with dogs is necessary, I was just pointing out one benefit. For us with our low drive dog and full-time work, playing with dogs is not only good value on an exercise front for Kivi, but it also teaches him how to approach different dogs AND most importantly, it's a lot of fun for us as well.

Still don't really understand anyone who has dogs and yet doesn't like to see them playing with other dogs? Personally, I am more than happy to deal with the inconvenience of having a dog that adores other dogs more than me sometimes so that I can watch him have a wow of a time with them. The important thing is that he will come away when it's time to go, and that's all I aim for. Having to compete with other rewarding things in the environment is a good workout for my brain and my observation skills.

[charli73]

I often wondered whether we socialised Zoe too much, we let her run off lead with many other dogs at the park although she became so focussed on other dogs and not us..

It made her hard to train at obedience class as she way too excited and hard to get focus, we were just plain boring!

It seems that after almost 2 years she has grown out of it, and I can get her attention off lead when other dogs are around just by picking up a stick, she starts bouncing around like a bunny in excirement, WHO KNEW!!

Now though I am glad though we let her socailise with many different dogs.. it certainly makes for pleasant encounters at the park..

Edited April 24, 2009 by charli73

[corvus]

I think most dogs grow out of it. Most of the dogs I have watched grow up have gone through a crazy dog-obsessed period as youngsters. They have all grown out of it by 2 years, even the worst of them. We were at the dog park with Kivi today for the first time in a while. He was very excited, but once I got him to come to me I let him off leash and he was very good. He played well with all the dogs and came when called every time. He was more crazy on the leash than off. It's the tension of the leash and his inability to get to the other dogs that is problematic to me. Once he's off he's fine and no problems getting his attention. In fact, he was sweeping in every 30 seconds to say hi and make sure he knew where we were. I am confident he'll get over his leash thing, too. That's him at his worst and I can still get him to pay attention to me.

[charli73]

I think most dogs grow out of it. Most of the dogs I have watched grow up have gone through a crazy dog-obsessed period as youngsters. They have all grown out of it by 2 years, even the worst of them. We were at the dog park with Kivi today for the first time in a while. He was very excited, but once I got him to come to me I let him off leash and he was very good. He played well with all the dogs and came when called every time. He was more crazy on the leash than off. It's the tension of the leash and his inability to get to the other dogs that is problematic to me. Once he's off he's fine and no problems getting his attention. In fact, he was sweeping in every 30 seconds to say hi and make sure he knew where we were. I am confident he'll get over his leash thing, too. That's him at his worst and I can still get him to pay attention to me.

Corvus I hoped this would be the case but wasnt sure until a couple of nights ago when I had her at the park and i was more interesting off lead with a stick than the other dogs and I was SO happy!

Given she is our first dog I didnt know this was the case and i can even walk off on her (if she is being stubborn and wont come to me when were leaving) I just walk away and she panics and comes bolting after me, a phenomenon I havent ever experienced and I cannot tell you how happy I was and it is a regular occurence I thought would never happen. She does the 30 second sweep thing too..

Edited April 25, 2009 by charli73

[dark angel]

Have the dog in question sit on lead and i would walk past the dog with fritz on lead of course.As soon as there was a sign of this aggression i would correct him.A light tug on his lead and a stern no does NOT take him out of his DRIVE.A firm correction and a loud no tells him its not right.Once he has returned to his normal self lots of praise.On the whole it takes about 5 passes before he no longer does it and problem solved.

So what do you do/ what does he do when there is no "Alpha aid" ie prong and lead on him when another dog approaches that isn't under control?

I believe when using corrections to stop aggro you are stopping the visual behaviour but not the dogs mindset. I personally don't see that as problem solved jmo.

cheers

M-J

If he is off lead i heel him .He comes to me.I havent YET had trouble with him off lead.I believe i have changed his mindset.He now if approached by another unknown dog will assume a subordinate position even roll onto his tummy with some.

[m-j]

He now if approached by another unknown dog will assume a subordinate position even roll onto his tummy with some.

You mentioned somewhere in a previous post he doesn't go into avoidance. I believe a dog has gone into avoidance by assuming a subordinate position, where the dog's pre-training normal response is rank aggression. Avoidance of your response to his aggression not the dog. I believe if the dog is truely calm (no calming signals etc) then the mindset to the dog has been changed.

cheers

M-J

[Just Midol]

but I don't think having dogs play with other dogs has any benefit.

Ever? Even if a dog is an only dog and the owner works 10 hours per day? There is no value at all in playing with another dog? What about enjoyment?

I don't ket my dog play with every dog we come across, but I'd hate to think of the life he would live if I never, ever once allowed him to play with another dog.

I work 12 hours a day and my dogs easily get enough stimulation.

I'd have no problems if they were never allowed to spend time with another dog. In fact, they only spend time with dogs within my family. Outside dogs = no.

[lucylotto]

I think some people confuse socialisation with "play". I do not expect or want my dogs to be the most popular dog in the dog park. I do not want them to think every dog around them is a potential playmate and a reason to act stupid.

I do expect to be able to take them out in public and have them behave, especially when other dogs are around them are not behaving. My definition of a dog-socialised dog is one that has learned to be comfortable when near other dogs, and to pay attention to their owner despite the presence of other dogs.

And I don't believe that you can create this calm state of mind in the dog using corrections. You also can't create it with a dog that has been confined to a backyard and never meets any other dogs.

agree. one of my dogs is well socialised in that he is very used to being around other dogs and relaxed but just ignores them. He is not at all interested in them and only 'plays' with his live in pal - our other dog. She is interested in checking out other dogs and will have the occasional play but again is more comfortable playing with our other dog. Socialising and playing not necessarily the same thing.

[Roguedog]

Socialising and playing not necessarily the same thing.

exactly right, being in the vicinity of other dogs and ignoring them is still part of normal dog behaviour.

[megan_]

but I don't think having dogs play with other dogs has any benefit.

Ever? Even if a dog is an only dog and the owner works 10 hours per day? There is no value at all in playing with another dog? What about enjoyment?

I don't ket my dog play with every dog we come across, but I'd hate to think of the life he would live if I never, ever once allowed him to play with another dog.

I work 12 hours a day and my dogs easily get enough stimulation.

I'd have no problems if they were never allowed to spend time with another dog. In fact, they only spend time with dogs within my family. Outside dogs = no.

But you have more than one dog. What if you only had one?

[Steve K9Pro]

C: Really? But you missed the bit where I said Kivi isn't really into playing ball or tug.

K9: Ok sorry, take away tug & ball & you dont have 10 000 ways, you have 9998 ways.

C: For us with our low drive dog and full-time work, playing with dogs is not only good value on an exercise front for Kivi, but it also teaches him how to approach different dogs

K9: In many cases the drive for other dogs increase to a point that meetings are calm & even any longer, the dog with the high value for other dogs bolts up to strange dogs & can get attacked for it.

C: Still don't really understand anyone who has dogs and yet doesn't like to see them playing with other dogs?

K9: I dont think you have to understand them, Im neutral, dont like it, dont dislike it.

C: Personally, I am more than happy to deal with the inconvenience of having a dog that adores other dogs more than me sometimes so that I can watch him have a wow of a time with them. The important thing is that he will come away when it's time to go, and that's all I aim for.

K9: If he comes away then I guess you have nice balance, I think in the last thread though we discussed that there are things he wont come for? Maybe that's improved.

I would also say that if I wanted to exercise my dog off leash & your dog just wanted to come up & play, I would not be as happy as you would be about it. Some people just dont like your dog coming up all the time.

Specially of they are trying to rehab maybe some aggression in their dog.