Steve K9Pro Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 K9: What the correct method of socialisation is for someone's dog is not as simple as 123. I wrote a couple of treads here that cover what I believe works best with the least amount of risk. Thread 1 Socialisation & Neutralisation Thread 2 Puppy Socialisation I don't agree with delivering severe corrections under any circumstances during socialisation but I don't think having dogs play with other dogs has any benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grotty_rotty Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I apply this method with my husband actually... for example when we go into the supermarket he cannot make eye contact with other people and I discourage him the minute he tries to speak to anyone. Makes our shopping trips that much more pleasant and so much quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I apply this method with my husband actually... for example when we go into the supermarket he cannot make eye contact with other people and I discourage him the minute he tries to speak to anyone.Makes our shopping trips that much more pleasant and so much quicker. Where do you fit the prong collar on him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I apply this method with my husband actually... for example when we go into the supermarket he cannot make eye contact with other people and I discourage him the minute he tries to speak to anyone.Makes our shopping trips that much more pleasant and so much quicker. Where do you fit the prong collar on him? The mind boggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grotty_rotty Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Lets just say it is a small prong collar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Grotty Rotty, does this method work for those breeds of husbands who feel the urge to skip down the isles singing the ads for the products he picks up off the shelves......just to embarrass me???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Well, one benefit of dogs playing with other dogs is physical activity. Kivi goes to daycare twice a week and plays with other dogs all day. He wishes he lived there and he gets on with everyone famously, especially newcomers (so I don't know about that Leerburg article claim over territorial dog aggression in dog parks). Kivi is not big on playing fetch, tug, or any other kind of athletic game (although he likes fast-paced hikes). He is extremely fit, though, and he's all hard muscle under his fluffy fur. He has also learnt a lot about the way different dogs communicate through playing with them. Seeing as play is such a high reward for him he has learnt heaps about the ways to approach dogs to put them at ease and invite play and calm them and so on. Lots of things he can use in any situation. And I quite enjoy watching him play with other dogs, so there's another benefit. I don't know how you could not enjoy watching dogs play together. It always makes me smile. I do, however, think that Kivi has been slightly over-socialised. At the moment his ears perk up if a dog barks a block away when we are walking. He just wants to go find them in case they are friendly. Strange dogs have the biggest pull on him because he has met so many dogs and loved them. Having said that I would do the same thing if I had my time with him again. He is quite the social butterfly and may well have gone that way anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbi Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Forgive my ignorance but what is a prong collar I am imagining some medieval torture device, I hope I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark angel Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 Thankyou for all your comments maybe not so much about being slightly demented but hey ill take the good with the bad. Thankyou all who picked up on the incorrect spelling of Boerboel. Firstly some clarification The only reason he stays close to you now is to avoid a severe correction (read that as physical abuse) from you. He has NO idea why you've abused him for looking at other dogs so avoids further pain/stress by being too frightened to move away from you. That isn't training.. it's purely driven by fear of prior 'corrections' as you call them. Fritz has a high rank drive and I believe he sees himself as the alpha male. Certain dogs for some reason which we are not sure of as why he imparts this Alpha status on them.This has happened four times over the last year.From memory a Bulldog a Coolie a New Zealand Kelpie and one other which I cant remember. I am his pack leader not him.I am Alpha not him Growling lunging just plain wanting to eat the dog.So how did we fix it? Have the dog in question sit on lead and i would walk past the dog with fritz on lead of course.As soon as there was a sign of this aggression i would correct him.A light tug on his lead and a stern no does NOT take him out of his DRIVE.A firm correction and a loud no tells him its not right.Once he has returned to his normal self lots of praise.On the whole it takes about 5 passes before he no longer does it and problem solved. We now socialise both our dogs the boerbaul and our dogue but in our socialization we teach them How to behave around other dogs. No sniffing No eye contact and no growling.It works a treat . Yes if a dog growls sniffs or looks at another dog he is corrected. When there are 15 - 20 dogs walking in tight circles ,dropping within 20 cm's of each others noses dogs weaving in and out each other the only thing that dog should have on its mind is its handler not the dog next to him in front of him or behind him. At our dog training we have socialisation for 30 mins where we teach the dogs not to socialize with the other dogs.When i mean socialize i mean play react etc.Maybe a better word would be behave. A better word would be "avoidance". There is nothing 'social' about whatever it is you are being taught to do with your dog. It isn't play react either (there is no such thing). No not avoid, have them disinterested in other dogs so they dont interact with them. I think some people confuse socialisation with "play". I do not expect or want my dogs to be the most popular dog in the dog park. I do not want them to think every dog around them is a potential playmate and a reason to act stupid. I do expect to be able to take them out in public and have them behave, especially when other dogs are around them are not behaving. My definition of a dog-socialised dog is one that has learned to be comfortable when near other dogs, and to pay attentention to their owner despite the presence of other dogs. I whole heartedly agree.Unfortunately the word socialisation and play to some people mean the same thing And I don't believe that you can create this calm state of mind in the dog using corrections. You also can't create it with a dog that has been confined to a backyard and never meets any other dogs. It almost seems no one corrects their dog? So once again for your comments. But one thing seems to puzzle me.Is my dog the only dog in this world that has rank drive? Am i the only person who corrects this drive.From some of the replies its seems avoidance from the handlers is the answer .Dont let the dog get into such a situation? Take him away from another dog if it seems there may be a confrontation? My dogs behaviour is the sole responsibilty of myself.So if correcting him for ANTI social behaviour results in avoidance of confrontations then what am i doing wrong. If my dog can drop and then be humped by another dog which is not so well trained and be oblivious to it has he been taught badly? I think not.Others may think differently. Finally as K9 force wrote in one of his great posts I prefer to neutralise my dogs to everything accept me & what I can give the dog. So that is me, my affection, praise, pats, prey items & food that my dog finds valueable, not anything else And that is what i aim for and believe am very close to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I don't think my dog's aggression comes from dominance. I found that correcting her made things worse. So I do avoid other dogs with her as she does not like them. I have gotten to the point now where I can have her sitting in a driveway while another dog comes past. The problem I have is that people do not respect other dog's space, and even if I am in a driveway off the footpath people let their dogs choke themselves pulling to get to my dog while my dog sits there calmly (until the dog gets in her critical distance). I found with her that clicker training for correct response - looking at me instead of another dog - has helped remarkably in her behaviour. I have seen people utilise the method you describe with success, but I have found that this method does not work for me and my dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark angel Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 I do, however, think that Kivi has been slightly over-socialised. At the moment his ears perk up if a dog barks a block away when we are walking. He just wants to go find them in case they are friendly. Strange dogs have the biggest pull on him because he has met so many dogs and loved them. Having said that I would do the same thing if I had my time with him again. He is quite the social butterfly and may well have gone that way anyway. Have you ever met a dog that is not friendly? What did you do? or what would you do? You have almost explained what i have been trying to.Why should your dog when walking with you WANT to go play with other dogs?Can u call him back if he runs to play ? Who is to blame if he gets mauled? Not having a go at you just need clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 dark angel, the use of corrections when trying to manage aggression only lends to a dog who becomes a ticking time bomb. Whilst he will initially shows avoidance through the use of corrections, any given opportunity that presents itself, he will take. Never fight aggression with aggression. How long have you been using corrections for? If your method is not giving you an increasing line of consistent behaviour ie. his aggression is lessening and he seems more relaxed around new dogs, then it is working. If you have to correct him each time he sees another/new dog, then your method is not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I think there are a few concepts being thrown around here that are getting intertwined I don't think dealing with an aggression issue is neutralising the dog- the dog already has some value for dogs at this point. Socialisation means different things to different people too. Some prefer there dogs to have a positive value for dogs and others don't- i don't think either is right or wrong, just different. I like my dogs to play with other social dogs so choose to socialise rather than neutralise but also ensure my training is at a level where my dogs do not ignore me to seek out and play with other dogs. I do believe that a combination of appropriate rewards and corrections can be very successful in dealing with some cases of aggression without creating a ticking time bomb, if the handler knows what to do, when to do it and ensures the dog is taught what to do, not just what not to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I think for me a lot of it was my approach and how I felt and my body language. When shown how to deal with aggression with corrections, I was tense and I guess waiting for the reaction in case I needed to correct. Using the clicker allowed me to relax and approach it as a focus training exercise, and this helped Zoe to relax. Not that she is now social, but I have reduced her reactivity and her critical distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 And thats great Kavik Different things work for different people and different dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) Thanks I have been working hard at calming down my handling in general, my agility handling was described as frantic at one point but I am improving, and I can see the difference in my dog's performance. Personality trait of mine To be fair, the people that showed me how to use corrections for dog aggression, were able to have Zoe calmly around other dogs. I just was not able to effectively utilise that method. Edited April 23, 2009 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 do believe that a combination of appropriate rewards and corrections can be very successful in dealing with some cases of aggression without creating a ticking time bomb, if the handler knows what to do, when to do it and ensures the dog is taught what to do, not just what not to do. Aggression is aggression IMO, what type of aggression are you referring to Cosmolo? Corrections, if any, should only used when the dog is absolutely, positively aware of the behaviour that is expected. If he makes a wrong choice, then he can safely be corrected. But to correct for the act of showing aggression, especially in extreme cases, that is not teaching the dog anything, other than to be more smarter about it next time and to wait for an opportunity without showing any warning signs. Personally, and this IMOO, I would not entrust a novice handler with corrections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I am referring to individual dogs and handlers Kelpie i- not generalising about a type of aggression. And agree that the dog should understand what the correction is for and what behaviour was/ is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Since Steve (K9 Force) has already commented in this thread, let me pick up on another of your comments. You say your dog has rank aggression. What leads you to believe it is rank aggression and not say, fear aggression? They are both types of aggression but need to be treated / handled very differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 ETA sorry I misquoted you - you said drive not aggression Fritz has a high rank drive Can you please explain why you say high rank drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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