dark angel Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Hi there my first post and im going straight into the deep end.After reading countless posts on this forum it seems as though a lot of owners seem to ecourage their dogs to play with other dogs.(not referring to dogs that they also own) We also fell into a trap similar with our lovable Fritz a boerbaul.We used to walk him down the linear park where we live and stop and talk to other dog owners let the dogs sniff play etc. Is this the right thing to do? Previously i thought what harm could it do? they are having a great time.Until.... either my dog or your dog realizes they dont like the other and whalah a circumstance where it can be embarassing for both owners . We now socialise both our dogs the boerbaul and our dogue but in our socialization we teach them How to behave around other dogs. No sniffing No eye contact and no growling.It works a treat .Walking the dogs they seemingly oblivious to all other dogs ..yes they know they are there but dont even try to have contact with them..So much safer and calming for us. The boerbaul has had issues with a few dogs.But after a few very very stern corrections on his prong collar for looking at the other dog or reacting to the dog as he walks past he knows what not to do and heels very very close to me. At our dog training we have socialisation for 30 mins where we teach the dogs not to socialize with the other dogs.When i mean socialize i mean play react etc.Maybe a better word would be behave. oh btw our boerbaul is 52 kgs so yeah last thing we want is him to be wanting to "play" with another dog lol Would love to hear peoples views.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7464 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I believe you are slightly demented. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordelia Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Interesting first post. We also fell into a trap similar with our lovable Fritz a boerbaul Boerboel? We now socialise both our dogs the boerbaul and our dogue but in our socialization we teach them How to behave around other dogs. No sniffing No eye contact and no growling.It works a treat . But after a few very very stern corrections on his prong collar for looking at the other dog or reacting to the dog as he walks past he knows what not to do and heels very very close to me. The only reason he stays close to you now is to avoid a severe correction (read that as physical abuse) from you. He has NO idea why you've abused him for looking at other dogs so avoids further pain/stress by being too frightened to move away from you. That isn't training.. it's purely driven by fear of prior 'corrections' as you call them. At our dog training we have socialisation for 30 mins where we teach the dogs not to socialize with the other dogs.When i mean socialize i mean play react etc.Maybe a better word would be behave. A better word would be "avoidance". There is nothing 'social' about whatever it is you are being taught to do with your dog. It isn't play react either (there is no such thing). oh btw our boerbaul is 52 kgs so yeah last thing we want is him to be wanting to "play" with another dog lol I'm not sure why that is funny? My Great Dane is over 60kg and she often plays with other dogs. What's the big deal? (unless your Boerboel is now fear aggressive due to over-corrections around other dogs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory the Doted One Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Hi Dark Angel...I have to say...'huh?' to most of your post. Socialising by not socialising? I'm a little confused, although I think I might get what you mean. The only time I would not allow my dog to socialise with a friendly dog is if it was dog aggressive, and then I would do as you have suggested. Have the around dogs, but with their attention on me. If my dog was showing a relaxed attitude and open friendliness, and the other dog owner is open to them playing, ofcourse I would allow it. Dory meets LOTS of dogs up and down the road, and it is interesting to watch that sometimes they just sniff and check each other out and then walk on. sometimes they will have a quick play and then walk on. It has been the very odd occasion when I have had to peel her away from another dog because they were having so much fun that they ignored the rest of the world. Dory has snapped twice at dogs that were full on trying to eat her...from a distance I might add. Was I going to allow socialisation? No WAY. CLEARLY the other dog was not dog friendly (or Dory friendly, lets not assume) and clearly Dory was not going to be. Does that mean I now, no longer allow her to play and socialise openly with other dogs we meet? NO! I encourage it. Because she is not silly, she has manners and she is well aware of when enough is enough (mostly). Can you oversocialise? I don't think so. Can you incorrectly socialise? Absolutely. It's all about MANNERS, and understanding dog to dog language. BTW...I once owned a 50+kg Rottweiler....and I had NO problems socialising him with other dogs. EVER. Big or small. Because I watched the body language of the dogs we socialised with. If the other dog was showing discomfort, I backed him off. If there was signs of toeyness, I backed it off. If both dogs wanted to play nice...they got to play nice (and sometimes mental). But I STILL watched both of them like hawks...just in case. If the situation at any time was looking like it was going to get out of control. I stepped it back to get it back under control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesomil Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Dark angel, I understand what you are saying and yes, i think too much socialisation can be a problem in some dogs. Its great you are teaching your dogs how to behave around other dogs. There are alot of people who dont allow interaction with other dogs and it works very well for them. I think the worst socialising you can do is let strange dogs mingle while owners are chatting. Most people havent a clue about body language and things can go bad very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordelia Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Its great you are teaching your dogs how to behave around other dogs. But they haven't taught their dog to behave around other dogs... all they have done is frightened the animal into total submission so it is too scared to interact for fear of severe correction... that isn't training a behaviour.. it's using brute force to frighten into compliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I believe you are slightly demented. But that's just me. isn't just you and it is a very strange first post so that one would wonder if it really is a first post poor dogs hopefully they will read cordelias comments and take on board and realise that though their walks are now calming for them that their dogs are not calm at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lea Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Personally i think the only thing your teaching your dog is fear. I think you have got it all in reverse and need to do some reading and take some lessons with a professional dog trainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Very interesting first post. One of my dogs is aggressive towards other dogs, and I think a contributing factor was how I had socialised her by taking her to the off lead park and just letting her run round with the other dogs. I do remember a couple of times when she was run over by other dogs and may have had a bad experience, and with a somewhat nervous temperament, this may have been part of our problem. I am more careful with my other dogs now. More relaxed with my GSD as he is pretty easy going around other dogs, careful with my Kelpie as he can be more reactive if the other dog is showing too much interest in him, dominant or confrontational body language. If I think they will get along, I let them meet, if I don't think they will get along, we just keep on going. If the other dog is a friend, I will let them play. My Kelpie generally prefers to ignore other dogs unless it is one he likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Folks, I think your being taken for a ride. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I agree with Jesomil I think that too much doggy play can cause problems in some dogs, and personally, I prefer to have my dog remain a dog snob. I do let her interact on the very odd occasion with a dog that I know is 100% reliable, but most of the time she is not interested anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hetzer Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 My thinking is along the lines of Kavik. Generally I am pro socialization, and I think its important for dogs to boost their inter-doggie communication skills. However, I read the article http://leerburg.com/pdf/dogparks.pdf where the concept that dog parks are NOT a good idea is discussed - primarily due to dogs attempting to establish pack pecking order and "regular" dogs perceiving new dogs as intruders rather than playmates. It gave me a new perspective about the importance of being there for your dog in the capacity of protector/pack leader and not just start chatting with other humans and leave the dog to its own devices. Although I still take my dog to dog parks and encourage her to mix and play, I am vigilant at all times to ensure her socialization is not compromised with a bad experience like being ganged up on. I don't assume anything about the temperament of other dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidii Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 (edited) I think Socialisation is something that is VERY important as a puppy....i think you need to allow a puppy to be a puppy. I think socialisation can start coming to a minimum only if you decide to start participating in dog sports such as obedience and agility etc JMO. I dont think off leash dog parks are a good way to socialise a dog - why you ask? Most dogs are under NO CONTROL whatso ever. Edited April 22, 2009 by Heidii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory the Doted One Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Folks, I think your being taken for a ride. Tony Perhaps....but at least it has generated a discussion that at this time, hasn't got too heated. And there are unfortunately way too many people that think that this is how to handle the situation. It was how I was initially taught to deal with dog aggression...waaaaaaaay back when I was a raw newbie. (A 13yr old...Alpha Rolling a GSD...smart that....NOT... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 If you don't want your dog to interact with other dogs, why bother with "socialisation" at all. I'm think avoidance would be preferable to the constant application of aversives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussienot Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 (edited) I think some people confuse socialisation with "play". I do not expect or want my dogs to be the most popular dog in the dog park. I do not want them to think every dog around them is a potential playmate and a reason to act stupid. I do expect to be able to take them out in public and have them behave, especially when other dogs are around them are not behaving. My definition of a dog-socialised dog is one that has learned to be comfortable when near other dogs, and to pay attention to their owner despite the presence of other dogs. And I don't believe that you can create this calm state of mind in the dog using corrections. You also can't create it with a dog that has been confined to a backyard and never meets any other dogs. Edited April 24, 2009 by Aussienot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 My dogs are socialised with dogs- friendly and playful when i allow but quite capable of ignoring dogs at other times. I use a balance of rewards and some corrections in my training and my dogs are well balanced and happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterpaws Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I've never heard of a boerbaul Is it anything like a boerboel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumbeat Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 But after a few very very stern corrections on his prong collar for looking at the other dog or reacting to the dog as he walks past he knows what not to do and heels very very close to me. Hopefully for the dogs sake this is a windup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I'm not sure you could call it a windup purely on that? I have had trainers tell me to do that when I was seeking help for Zoe's dog aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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