Snakeproofing:

[sandgrubber]

Apologies for an overlapping post . . . this is more specific than the question asked on the General Forum.

I've been looking into snakeproofing dogs, and conclude that e-collar on a high setting (aversion training) is the way to go.

I've been warned by an expert (in the US) to train specifically for the animal of concern, lest you end up with a dog that has phobias about garden hoses and other things that may look remotely like a snake. But I'm not at all clear about how well dogs generalise. Obviously, it's much safer and easier to do the exercise with a non-venemous snake.

If you train with, say, a python, will most dogs correctly generalise to, say, a brown snake or tiger snake? Has anyone had experience.

[CP*]

I trained my dogs to back off and growl/bark to me when they see a snake. It was easy - just brought a brown and a black rubber snake and first showed them when the rubber snake was dormant to leave it. Then I tied some string around it and moved it around and taught them to leave it, back off and growl or bark. We do alot of bush walking and this snake season and the dogs came across about 6 brown and black snakes (that I know of) and the dogs reactions were exactly as they were trained. They associated the rubber snakes with the real snakes (plus I rewarded them when the reacted correctly on seeing a real snake) and didnt get them confused with hoses or cords or other long rubber things. I used a both brown and black coloured snakes because they are the colours we most often come across - this was recommended to me from someone at the RSPCA.

I didnt need to use corrections to train them - just used commands they already knew, like leave it and back and bark/growl. I have sheepdogs so it may be more difficult if you have a terrier, not sure.

[Just Midol]

Use the crittering technique that Lou discusses on his website.

*caro, imo there are very few prey driven dogs who will leave a snake when you are NOT there whilst it is moving without a form of aversive.

[sandgrubber]

Use the crittering technique that Lou discusses on his website.

*caro, imo there are very few prey driven dogs who will leave a snake when you are NOT there whilst it is moving without a form of aversive.

Here's Lou Castles reply to a question about using crittering for snakes

Me: Could the Crittering approach be adapted to teach a dog to ignore

snakes (or reptiles in general), eg using a captive snake?

Lou: I think that more than the dog just "ignoring" the snake is called

for. I also think that it's best if the dog is trained on the poisonous

snakes (not just any snake) that may be in his environment. I know of dogs that

have been trained on non-poisonous snakes and many of them now fear rope,

garden hoses and anything that even remotely resembles a snake.

He goes on to say that he developed his Crittering approach to make sure police dogs wouldn't chase cats.

The exercise would be much easier to set up if you could use a python rather than a deadly species. So any information on how dogs are likely to generalise from one species (or genus) to another would be very helpful.

Edited April 19, 2009 by sandgrubber

[Just Midol]

Use the crittering technique that Lou discusses on his website.

*caro, imo there are very few prey driven dogs who will leave a snake when you are NOT there whilst it is moving without a form of aversive.

Here's Lou Castles reply to a question about using crittering for snakes

Me: Could the Crittering approach be adapted to teach a dog to ignore

snakes (or reptiles in general), eg using a captive snake?

Lou: I think that more than the dog just "ignoring" the snake is called

for. I also think that it's best if the dog is trained on the poisonous

snakes (not just any snake) that may be in his environment. I know of dogs that

have been trained on non-poisonous snakes and many of them now fear rope,

garden hoses and anything that even remotely resembles a snake.

He goes on to say that he developed his Crittering approach to make sure police dogs wouldn't chase cats.

The exercise would be much easier to set up if you could use a python rather than a deadly species. So any information on how dogs are likely to generalise from one species (or genus) to another would be very helpful.

Ahhh, yes, I see his point.

You want the dog to actively avoid it, not just ignore it.

Could you use a Python AND a Colubrid, that way you've got slow moving snakes and fast moving snakes. I see no reason why they wouldn't generalise but I've never done it. Colubrids are venomous but are much easier to get licenses to keep. With the fearing hoses and stuff part of it couldn't you also use their scenting abilities to try and avoid this?

Whenever I have quered snake proofing on here I get almost no responses so don't hold your breath

Edited April 20, 2009 by Just Midol

[Quickasyoucan]

It's interesting you say you dont' get much of a response.

Coming from a non-snake country (well apart from adders) to a snake one it is something I think about a lot when walking my dog, we have some pretty snakey bushland around here by all accounts.

I would love to have my dog competently snake proofed. After all its a win-win situation there for both the snake and the dog. You only have to do a quick scan of this forum alone to see how many dogs do suffer snake bites. One vet program (I think it might have been the SASH segment on Bondi vet) said about 8,000 dogs per year suffer snake bites in Australia, but those would only be the reported ones that made it to a vet. The Cesar segment I saw said 150,000 in America with 10-15% fatal.

My only thought would be whether a dog would actually act the same way if it came across a snake when its owner was not around ie in the garden when the owner at work. That is my greatest fear to come home to a dead dog.

I guess with the e-collar the advantage is that the dog does not associate the negative (the stim) with the owner, although on the snake proofing episode I saw it was, approach, stim at the moment the dog starts to trigger and then turn and walk away with dog (on leash) presumably to teach flight as the best method to deal with snakes.

Sorry I can't help with the type of snake question, but I will be interested in anything you come across sandgrubber.

ETA: I wouldn't actually care if my dog feared hoses, as being prey driven he attacks those too!! Anyway better to be fearful than dead.!

[Just Midol]

The fatality rate in Australia is 40% from memory.

[corvus]

I think the dog's would generalise fine. As far as my corgi is concerned, a snake is a snake no matter how big, small, fast or slow. She's seen a handful and always reacts the same way. She stays out of range and barks. I suspect that all snakes smell pretty much the same, and whatever visual cues they use to ID a snake are common to all snakes.

Kivi hasn't seen a snake, yet, but he is deeply unsettled by Blue-tongue lizards. Blueys have evolved to look like a death adder as yet another predator deterrant.

[Quickasyoucan]

I think the dog's would generalise fine. As far as my corgi is concerned, a snake is a snake no matter how big, small, fast or slow. She's seen a handful and always reacts the same way. She stays out of range and barks. I suspect that all snakes smell pretty much the same, and whatever visual cues they use to ID a snake are common to all snakes.

Kivi hasn't seen a snake, yet, but he is deeply unsettled by Blue-tongue lizards. Blueys have evolved to look like a death adder as yet another predator deterrant.

It is interesting that your corgi stays out of range as I guess that is what a primitive animal would have done. When I was watching the Cesar Millan snakeproofing he put dogs curiosity - he had a rattler in a cage and probably 60% of the dogs in his pack approached within strike range to sniff it - down to an instance of where domestication and perhaps selective breeding had overridden primal instinct. Funnily enough, I haven't personally seen that many snakes but have come across a fair few large lizards and I always get that sort of primal adrenaline rush (sorry hard to describe) even if I have spotted something out of the corner of my eye that it might be a snake.

With blue tongues I know that my dog is pretty curious, I am pretty sure he would go within striking distance - not that I would give him the opportunity to hurt a bluey but when we have had them in the garden he very clearly goes into prey drive for small lizards and geckos.

Have you got any further with your research Sandgrubber?

[sandgrubber]

Have you got any further with your research Sandgrubber?

Not really. Mostly, I seem to find that no one has done much, and there's not much of a foundation for knowing how to do it.

It would be easier in the US, where most of the poisonous snakes are rattle snakes . . . and pretty similar in look and behaviour. But I think it requires testing to see if dogs generalise correctly, and to learn how much it varies from dog to dog. I'd expect that small terriers, who were bred to go to ground, might have different tendencies than, say, sight hounds or gun dogs. I know of Rottis and one Labrador who have killed dugites [a very venomous WA snake] without themselves being harmed. Terriers seem to have the greatest talent for getting killed.

Next step, I think, is to do some search of funding agencies and see if it might be possible to get a small grant from the Lotteries Council or some such to do the study required to set a foundation for doing it right. In WA the only snakes one can keep without a rather difficult-to-obtain license are pythons, so testing to see if dogs trained on a python are also trained off tiger snakes and dugites (the main problems in Perth) will require collaboration with a professional snake handler . . . who is probably going to want to be paid.

. . . and to use the e-collar on my own dogs during the blue-tongue mating season. My crew are not very nice with blue tongues . . . they bark at them and lunge until I come out and give them hell and take the poor lizard away. That behaviour should be easy to fix with an e-collar.

Edited April 21, 2009 by sandgrubber

[Quickasyoucan]

Have you got any further with your research Sandgrubber?

Not really. Mostly, I seem to find that no one has done much, and there's not much of a foundation for knowing how to do it.

It would be easier in the US, where most of the poisonous snakes are rattle snakes . . . and pretty similar in look and behaviour. But I think it requires testing to see if dogs generalise correctly, and to learn how much it varies from dog to dog. I'd expect that small terriers, who were bred to go to ground, might have different tendencies than, say, sight hounds or gun dogs. I know of Rottis and one Labrador who have killed dugites [a very venomous WA snake] without themselves being harmed. Terriers seem to have the greatest talent for getting killed.

Next step, I think, is to do some search of funding agencies and see if it might be possible to get a small grant from the Lotteries Council or some such to do the study required to set a foundation for doing it right. In WA the only snakes one can keep without a rather difficult-to-obtain license are pythons, so testing to see if dogs trained on a python are also trained off tiger snakes and dugites (the main problems in Perth) will require collaboration with a professional snake handler . . . who is probably going to want to be paid.

. . . and to use the e-collar on my own dogs during the blue-tongue mating season. My crew are not very nice with blue tongues . . . they bark at them and lunge until I come out and give them hell and take the poor lizard away. That behaviour should be easy to fix with an e-collar.

Yep I suppose by selecting breeding to encourage certain traits in dogs we have also maybe bred out natural caution. I have heard of more than one SBT who has died due to a snake bite and, maybe it's a terrier thing to pick up and shake, not the best thing when it is a poisonous snake. :D

I had a read of Lou Castle's crittering article, he seems to say that dogs may generalise when talking about cats and other mammals of the same size, but as you say hard to test unless you can get in front of a snake in a controlled test. Also what I took away was timing is critical in getting it right as otherwise you can end up with the wrong result.

Would be really interested to hear how you get on Sandgrubber, after all as I said before, surely snakeproofing is a win-win for the dog and the snake and the best way to go.

[corvus]

Funnily enough, I haven't personally seen that many snakes but have come across a fair few large lizards and I always get that sort of primal adrenaline rush (sorry hard to describe) even if I have spotted something out of the corner of my eye that it might be a snake.

I know what you mean. They do look like snakes. I quite like snakes, but every time I get surprised by one my heart is in my mouth until I know I'm safe. I'm not afraid of snakes, but my subconscious is. I've had a few frights from Blueys before I've realised it's just a lizard.

I don't know that Penny really does stay entirely out of range. It's hard to tell. Suffice to say she acts really strangely around snakes and at least until I get there she'll stay behind the snake and she has a bark I've only ever heard when she's found a snake. First time she ever saw one was a Tiger one of the other dogs was getting riled. She went over to see what he'd found and I got worried when I saw her suddenly jump high over something with her ears in the fear position and skitter well away. It would be fair to say she is instinctively afraid of snakes. I find that very interesting considering she doesn't have much of a prey drive and will walk right up to a lizard to have a sniff.

Kivi will pounce on small lizards quite happily. He really doesn't like those Blueys, though. Probably one has had a go at him.

[Lablover]

I train WITH EXTREME CAUTION near water and weed cover, during the warmer months, I check with property owners, relatively safe areas. Properties with cattle are great, as snakes feel their vibrations as they feed.

Fortunately due to drought, they are more easily seen and in reality their numbers seem to be significantly lower as ie food resources have declined.

Snakes generally are shy creatures but we all worry, due to their danger.

We used to have a labrador when walking along bush trakes, who instantly came to heel and whine, if she sensed a snake.

[trifecta]

I live in an area which is famous for its snakes! The Lake George area has the highest number of brown snakes per km2 than any other area in Australia & the vet practice here is the biggest user of antivenene amongst hospitals, veterinary & medical practices in the whole of the country.

A behaviourist friend of mine who runs local obedience courses always includes a class on snake avoidance. She uses dead snakes..... if we come across them & they are not too squashed we pick them up off the roads & tracks & store them in the freezer until class time!

[Lablover]

A behaviourist friend of mine who runs local obedience courses always includes a class on snake avoidance. She uses dead snakes..... if we come across them & they are not too squashed we pick them up off the roads & tracks & store them in the freezer until class time!

I can imagine it works well!!!

[sandgrubber]

A behaviourist friend of mine who runs local obedience courses always includes a class on snake avoidance. She uses dead snakes..... if we come across them & they are not too squashed we pick them up off the roads & tracks & store them in the freezer until class time!

I can imagine it works well!!!

When I did tracking in SES, the dogs were completely flummoxed by suicides. A dead person smells completely different from a live one . . . not to mention that it doesn't move. Cadaver dogs are an different specialty and require different training.

I would assume the same is true of snakes, and I would be cautious about training snake avoidance with roadkill.

[corvus]

Mmm, true. I was going to say I didn't think it would matter as I have a feeling snakes are as much or more of a visual thing than a smell thing, but then I remembered that apart from the fact that EVERYTHING is a smell thing for dogs, and once we tried to trick fairywrens with a dead male someone had fished out of the toilet and left to dry on their windowsill for a month. Every single wren behaved the same way. They were curious, but they knew it was all wrong and no threat. They'd fly in and just stare at it.

[Lablover]

A behaviourist friend of mine who runs local obedience courses always includes a class on snake avoidance. She uses dead snakes..... if we come across them & they are not too squashed we pick them up off the roads & tracks & store them in the freezer until class time!

I can imagine it works well!!!

When I did tracking in SES, the dogs were completely flummoxed by suicides. A dead person smells completely different from a live one . . . not to mention that it doesn't move. Cadaver dogs are an different specialty and require different training.

I would assume the same is true of snakes, and I would be cautious about training snake avoidance with roadkill.

So if your SES trained dog, avoided an area, due to live snake or dead snake, what did you do?

[Quickasyoucan]

A behaviourist friend of mine who runs local obedience courses always includes a class on snake avoidance. She uses dead snakes..... if we come across them & they are not too squashed we pick them up off the roads & tracks & store them in the freezer until class time!

I can imagine it works well!!!

When I did tracking in SES, the dogs were completely flummoxed by suicides. A dead person smells completely different from a live one . . . not to mention that it doesn't move. Cadaver dogs are an different specialty and require different training.

I would assume the same is true of snakes, and I would be cautious about training snake avoidance with roadkill.

That's interesting as I would have thought cadavers (of any kind) would have been easier to find. Don't know about you but my dog can find a dead fish (to roll in ), dead bird etc from far far and away. No training involved there unfortunately! Someone told me a tale (this is very definitely second hand info) about a body that washed up at North Curl Curl which has the off leash in the dunes next to it. Apparently what alerted people to the body was the stampede of dogs down the beach to investigate.

I am a bit surprised people aren't more interested in snake proofing, but maybe like a typical pom I am overstating the risk, you know when we first arrive we think there are snakes hanging from the trees and funnel webs under every toilet seat, that sort of thing

Still I would like to be able to enjoy taking my dog to off leash areas that might be snakey (long grass, water etc) with some degree of confidence that they wouldn't chase if they came across one. Obviously there is no guarantee they don't step on one by accident, but their senses are a darn sight better than ours.

When people talk about water do they hang around in the water or in the weeds?

[corvus]

A lot of snakes eat frogs, so tend to be found in areas where there might be frogs. Having said that, Browns are a mammal specialist and you'll find them in dry bush.

Personally, I'm all for a good recall and keeping dogs on a long line in the bush. It's not good for them to be harassing wildlife anyway. Most of the time snakes will sense the vibrations of you and the dogs coming and will be long gone by the time you get there, unless they are cold and trying to warm themselves. I make a point of stomping around loudly if I'm in long grass and think there might be snakes.

Most people will disagree with me because it's not uncommon for dogs to be bitten by snakes, but I think the risk is not that big, especially if you keep the dogs close when you are in the bush and they have a strong recall or "leave it". I spend a lot of time in the bush and hardly ever see snakes, even when I go looking for them. We are too noisy walking around in the bush. The trouble is on paths, where snakes often bask. If they are basking they may be cold and slow, or perhaps they are easier to surprise. Rocky areas can also be problematic as snakes will use the rocks as shelter and come and bask on the top, but at least they can get to safety pretty fast if they need to.

IMO, it's a risk you just live with. But in some areas there are more snakes and you see them all the time.