Sue Hogben Obedience Seminar Adelaide

[ness]

Alright quit with the teasing else I might just have to hide myself away in dad's bags when he goes to Perth on Monday or somehow lose him on the way to the airport and pinch his ticket .

[caffy]

yes thank you Caffy - nothing like throwing an I-Squeak through the UD ring as I send Scoota to the box and then sending Alex to get it when I tell Moo which jump to go over. You can't beat this sort of distraction work.

I actually didn't realise it was an i-squeak you were using - no wonder he was sooooo tempted.

We are cheap to rent for distractions Ptolomy

Can't wait for our obedience weekend...watch out..I have some doozies planned

[ness]

What obedience weekend is this!!!!!!!!! Darn you lot.

[RubyStar]

I don't think my ball crazy Labs are quite ready for i-squeak distraction methods Something to aspire to, though!

I was looking forward to the obedience weekend, now I just hope I can make it! Stupid swollen, bruised toes

[caffy]

What obedience weekend is this!!!!!!!!! Darn you lot.

hey, you had your weekend last weekend...we're having ours soon, lots of fun we'll be having

[ness]

Awww caffy don't be mean .

[Ptolomy]

What obedience weekend is this!!!!!!!!! Darn you lot.

hey, you had your weekend last weekend...we're having ours soon, lots of fun we'll be having

Have you decided where yet......nothing like the car park of a major shopping centre, or the beach - can just imagine setting the box up just on watersedge, then we have next to the duck pond - that should tip them over the edge

[caffy]

Have you decided where yet......nothing like the car park of a major shopping centre, or the beach - can just imagine setting the box up just on watersedge, then we have next to the duck pond - that should tip them over the edge

Well, I have done DOR with Alex with me standing on the river's edge...and yes, he did drop before being sent flying into the river

[ness]

Hmm we did ours with a huge flock of birdies on the oval and none of the kids went to chase them - pretty impressed .

[RubyStar]

Is Sue having another thingymabob here? When? Please let me know when if so! A weekend one would be beaut

[Zug Zug]

Oh no it went really badly this morning. I need help!

Zamba has been working so well with clicker and food on duration heeling, so I thought 'okay, I'll try doing it without the food on me, and have food in a container inside the circle and run over for it after the click'.

Which was demonstrated on the weekend. So I thought 'yeah, this can work'. And it all seemed way too easy having the food on me all the time and I thought she needed a challenge.

She started out okay, and then started lagging, walking wide, doing all the wrong things. Pretty soon I was struggling to find anything I could click. It just all came undone - the spring went out of her step and neither of us were enjoying ourselves anymore.

I had to work really hard to find something pathetically easy (but well done) to click and treat at the end. And then worked on something else to finish on a happier note.

But oh no - how to start again on duration heeling? Back to having food on me? Or push ahead with the idea of running across to the food so she doesn't stay completely dependant on the food being nearby?

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh no it went really badly this morning. I need help!

Zamba has been working so well with clicker and food on duration heeling, so I thought 'okay, I'll try doing it without the food on me, and have food in a container inside the circle and run over for it after the click'.

Which was demonstrated on the weekend. So I thought 'yeah, this can work'. And it all seemed way too easy having the food on me all the time and I thought she needed a challenge.

She started out okay, and then started lagging, walking wide, doing all the wrong things. Pretty soon I was struggling to find anything I could click. It just all came undone - the spring went out of her step and neither of us were enjoying ourselves anymore.

I had to work really hard to find something pathetically easy (but well done) to click and treat at the end. And then worked on something else to finish on a happier note.

But oh no - how to start again on duration heeling? Back to having food on me? Or push ahead with the idea of running across to the food so she doesn't stay completely dependant on the food being nearby?

Have you tried having food on you BUT using food from the container as the reinforcer? That's what I would try to begin with as it sounds like she directly relates you having food to her being rewarded.....and swap between using the food on you and the food from the container so she doesn't know where it will come from I did that with Ziggy this morning and he was just about busting out of his skin with enthusiasm and took hardly any notice of the masses of school kids running around us on the oval.

[ness]

Zug Zug I would get the food off you now!!!! Its easier to not start with the food on you if the dog has had any training on heeling ever. Having said that my 13 month old I train with a tuggy or ball hidden in my pocket but I am aware that she doesn't need this. I do have the chuckit on the ground but minus the ball which is in my pocket. I will also mix it up with her so sometimes rewarding from elsewhere, sometime from on me.

My older girl (will be 9 in September) who is currently trialling in UD was the dog used in the demo. I have been a friend of Sue's and had help from her and Ptolomy over the years (among others), and she has also done a bit of duration heelwork in the past. The way we have always tackled it in the past is to have the food pot visible to the dog in the centre of the circle. I am tackling now with the food pots hidden - I will stash them before working the dog. In coat pockets, training bags, behind trees etc.

You might have also observed Sue was clicking after 1 step occasionally even with Ness. I have a few attention issues in the ring (first dog so a lot of inconsistency). I was chatting about this with Sue and she said start at a level you know the dog is capable of - even if that level is only 5 steps (and yes that was her recommendation to me with a UD dog!!). Its quite simple you let the lack of reward dictate to the dog whether they are correct or incorrect. The best idea is to set out the level you wish to achieve in a session and write it down before going out. My girls are now on night 3 of duration heelwork.

Tonight the target was 19 steps, 11 steps, 27 steps. (Last night was 15, 20 then 7). Totally random numbers but as long as you increase the number of steps at least once from the previous session.

I am not sure how old your dog is or what previous training they have had. If Kenzie drops criteria (you have to set what your perfect picture behavior is) then I will just stop, remove my attention briefly (10 seconds or so), pause and then set off again and restart. So tonight she stopped the birds on attempt 1 and looked away for only a half second but that was enough to stop the attempt. Same thing happened on the first attempt at building 27 steps - can't remember exactly what but she lost that perfect position so we stopped and restarted.

Ness is different. If she is inattentive/lagging (but it doesn't get as far as lagging as you never let it), if Ness drops her head a fraction then she is put away and I get Kenzie out and play with her (prior to Kenzie Ness would go back in the car and I would ignore her for a while before starting again). Interesting tonight Ness was up and actually a bit to forward. At the time I let it slip but running it past Sue next time I will most likely treat that error the same as I do with Kenzie - namely 10 second time out, too bad so sad and try again.

If the dog is inattentive, unenthusiastic don't slip your criteria just because you want to reward them.

Different example but we were doing ring work on Tuesday night with my older dog who has a tendency of spitting her seekback article at my feet. Usually I would tell her to pick it up and then continue. Well there are no second chances in the trial ring so with exercises the dog knows this has now gone into my training to. She is allowed to spit the article at my feet but then she gets put away because if she wants to do that then obviously she isn't interested in playing the game. As Sue said at the seminar its not very reinforcing for the handler not being able to reinforce the dog but they can quickly fall into the habit of training you to reduce your criteria - trust me I have one who is very good at that and promised myself not to fall into the same trap second time around.

Probably a lot to digest in this post but I am happy to help if you are wanting any assistance. I have spent a number of years in contact with Sue (I actually put the proposal to the canine to get her to come over and give the seminars) and also had the wonderful good fortune of a lot of advice over the years so if you want help let me know.

[caffy]

Oh no it went really badly this morning. I need help!

Zamba has been working so well with clicker and food on duration heeling, so I thought 'okay, I'll try doing it without the food on me, and have food in a container inside the circle and run over for it after the click'.

Which was demonstrated on the weekend. So I thought 'yeah, this can work'. And it all seemed way too easy having the food on me all the time and I thought she needed a challenge.

She started out okay, and then started lagging, walking wide, doing all the wrong things. Pretty soon I was struggling to find anything I could click. It just all came undone - the spring went out of her step and neither of us were enjoying ourselves anymore.

I had to work really hard to find something pathetically easy (but well done) to click and treat at the end. And then worked on something else to finish on a happier note.

But oh no - how to start again on duration heeling? Back to having food on me? Or push ahead with the idea of running across to the food so she doesn't stay completely dependant on the food being nearby?

Duration Heelwork has a few stages and stopping food if you haven’t reached that stage would be a no no in my books.

I would keep food on you for several sessions then mix it up with rewarding from lots of sources as ness suggested.

I would go out while my boy was inside and hide his breakfast in a different spot everyday…I would also alternate with using very small SEALED containers on ME.

Just be creative…you can hide small containers in your pocket, bra, even down your pants. There is no set rules on where and when you reward but you must reward…you must reward!!

As Sue said to me…imagine taking a picture of what you like..that is when you reward…you will know.

[Ptolomy]

Oh no it went really badly this morning. I need help!

Zamba has been working so well with clicker and food on duration heeling, so I thought 'okay, I'll try doing it without the food on me, and have food in a container inside the circle and run over for it after the click'.

Which was demonstrated on the weekend. So I thought 'yeah, this can work'. And it all seemed way too easy having the food on me all the time and I thought she needed a challenge.

She started out okay, and then started lagging, walking wide, doing all the wrong things. Pretty soon I was struggling to find anything I could click. It just all came undone - the spring went out of her step and neither of us were enjoying ourselves anymore.

I had to work really hard to find something pathetically easy (but well done) to click and treat at the end. And then worked on something else to finish on a happier note.

But oh no - how to start again on duration heeling? Back to having food on me? Or push ahead with the idea of running across to the food so she doesn't stay completely dependant on the food being nearby?

Duration Heelwork has a few stages and stopping food if you haven’t reached that stage would be a no no in my books.

I would keep food on you for several sessions then mix it up with rewarding from lots of sources as ness suggested.

I would go out while my boy was inside and hide his breakfast in a different spot everyday…I would also alternate with using very small SEALED containers on ME.

Just be creative…you can hide small containers in your pocket, bra, even down your pants. There is no set rules on where and when you reward but you must reward…you must reward!!

As Sue said to me…imagine taking a picture of what you like..that is when you reward…you will know.

I would also have to say if she got to the lagging stage - you didn't break it off soon enough.

Also - don't feel that you have to reward just for the sake of rewarding - you probably would have been better off - putting her inside for a while and coming out and trying again 15 minutes later.

I have a toller and I tend to keep most rewards on me for fear that the red dogs genes will tell them to run off whenever they see a container that could possibly contain a treat. They don't see me load up with food and it is usually in a sealed container in my pocket

PS - its terrific to see you giving it a go WELL DONE

[ness]

Have you taught Zamba to target heel position when your standing still, set up at heel?

[Zug Zug]

I'm so glad I asked! I've been doing my best with a little bit of information, so that's really helpful and lots to think about. I've ordered some clicker training books over the web this week but they haven't arrived yet. Bummer - I was looking forward to a rainy weekend in bed with some books.

Hmm - no I never really taught Zamba to target heel position. That was the first time I saw that done at the seminars last week. Great idea, so I've started it a little but she doesn't really know it yet. She keeps moving too far in front and staring at me as if to say 'I am SO in the right position!' but we'll get there. I have no idea how to get her to move backwards and wiggle her bum up behind me, but I guess that'll come in time. Zamba's very much a 'let's move forwards' kind of a dog.

Bit of background - she's 11 years old but still very healthy and very active (vet agrees). She has the kind of brain that needs to be kept busy, or she'll get busy doing all the wrong things. Formal(ish) training for nearly 5 years now but I've taken it pretty cruisy and we got hooked slowly.

She got her CCD last year. I am very proud - although we failed a lot of trials to get there! We even won a trophy for first place in CCD at the German Shepherd club! My 2 girls were there to see it or they would never have believed me. Husband still suspects I stole the trophy from someone else.

My kids taught her lots of tricks when she was young - so she has had several 'trainers' all of whom have given her different signals and things to do. If you watch her closely, you'll still see her lift her paw when she sits a lot of the time, because when my daughters (now 16) were younger they taught her to sit, then shake hands. She must have done it 10 times a day for most of her life. So she sits, and often lifts her paw to say 'please'. No-one seems to mind, though.

Now I know this will sound like a very slow start to many of you but please remember a few things. 1 - I haven't done this before so she's working with a learner. 2 - she's very smart and more than a little bonkers so I've had my work cut out for me. 3 - her earlier years were spent being dressed up like a horse and jumping home-made show-jumping obstacles in the backyard for my 2 girls (and preventing them from expecting our Bichon to do silly stuff like that - not his cup of tea). She loved every moment - but a few years ago they grew out of the 'backyard dog play' phase - and I grew back into it!

So she's been busy, but real obedience is new to us both and we will never reach UD. I do (however) have my sights set on a CD title for Zamba. That would be wonderful and prove that even formerly bonkers dogs can work off-lead. Sigh! (Okay, maybe secretly I have hopes for CDX but all depends on her being healthy and happy. She has separation anxiety problems so I'm not sure about stays out of sight, either.)

Having said that, it's her bonkers hyper energy that really got us this far, and she's a lot calmer than she used to be. It's also what got her into the pound, which is where I found her when she was about 2 years old. So many stories I could tell - suffice to say our house and yard were encased in weld-mesh in her early days. She even crashed through windows to come and greet me on my return from work once. And she climbs trees. Focus is a skill that is coming to Zamba late in life!

I take the point about breaking it off sooner. And you're right - she's foxing to a large extent because she knows what to do. No question really - when there's food there she just does it so it's all there in her head. I'll work on rewarding the good stuff sooner (you're right she was heeling nicely for 20+ steps with food around so I was expecting long stints from her too often I think) and cutting off as soon as she looks away.

Thanks - I'll let you know how we get on.

[RubyStar]

She keeps moving too far in front and staring at me as if to say 'I am SO in the right position!' but we'll get there. I have no idea how to get her to move backwards and wiggle her bum up behind me, but I guess that'll come in time. Zamba's very much a 'let's move forwards' kind of a dog.

I try not to put my 2 cents worth of advice in too often as I'm still wearing my L plates with my L plates dog too, so don't think I'm overly qualified to give advice! But saying that, I have that problem with Ruby where she just jumps in any old position on my left side and thinks its right I had Sue tell me that when she gets into heel and she's not quite there, over exaggerate her error in judgement by stepping away from her with an "uh oh!" and ask her to try again. The reason she said to move away and get her to try again, as opposed to staying put and trying to help her get into the correct position, is the dog will start thinking "it's ok, mum will just help me if I'm wrong" and won't try harder for the right position first time. I've been doing this with Ruby by getting her to only get into position from my left, she isn't allowed to go around behind me to find the position as that is her way of cheating! If I stop her from going that way, she has to work harder to find the position and also move her backend. She know knows if I step away she has to try again, so I'm asking her a bit less to get into position now, she just does it. Not always right though when going directly to the left, she tries every way possible to take shortcuts :cool: I can also say heel now from wherever she is and she comes to my left side, we're just working on getting the position spot on!

[Ptolomy]

She keeps moving too far in front and staring at me as if to say 'I am SO in the right position!' but we'll get there. I have no idea how to get her to move backwards and wiggle her bum up behind me, but I guess that'll come in time. Zamba's very much a 'let's move forwards' kind of a dog.

I try not to put my 2 cents worth of advice in too often as I'm still wearing my L plates with my L plates dog too, so don't think I'm overly qualified to give advice! But saying that, I have that problem with Ruby where she just jumps in any old position on my left side and thinks its right :cool: I had Sue tell me that when she gets into heel and she's not quite there, over exaggerate her error in judgement by stepping away from her with an "uh oh!" and ask her to try again. The reason she said to move away and get her to try again, as opposed to staying put and trying to help her get into the correct position, is the dog will start thinking "it's ok, mum will just help me if I'm wrong" and won't try harder for the right position first time. I've been doing this with Ruby by getting her to only get into position from my left, she isn't allowed to go around behind me to find the position as that is her way of cheating! If I stop her from going that way, she has to work harder to find the position and also move her backend. She know knows if I step away she has to try again, so I'm asking her a bit less to get into position now, she just does it. Not always right though when going directly to the left, she tries every way possible to take shortcuts I can also say heel now from wherever she is and she comes to my left side, we're just working on getting the position spot on!

Woo Hoo Rubystar - you are making progress WELL DONE

[The Spotted Devil]

The ultimate distraction....Zig just did some heeling for his dinner....with one of my Burmese cats, Miss Brontë, draped around my shoulders meaning I have to hunch slightly to help her balance. Ziggy had that classic "I'm not falling for THAT old trick" look in his eyes