Confused...and Frankly A Bit Down-hearted

[Lady Flying Furball]

Hi,

I was after some general advice as I'm feeling upset about my dog when I walk him on the leash, toward other dogs. He just growls and barks whenever he spots another dog at any distance. I thought it was getting better, but now I actually wonder.

I got him as an entire adult dog 6 months ago, 3.5 years old, papillon, and had him desexed first week...thought that might be the answer I picked him up from a breeder whom I trust. Apparently he's always been the top one, even with bigger dogs and he would bark at dogs, but not problematically, and play with them. I picked him up from a dog show and he wasn't behaving like this at all!

Since I have had him, from the word go he has behaved like this. I had the feeling that suddenly being alone, he may feel more vulnerable...also an element of protecting me too I sense.

I have worked so hard, tried lots of things over periods of time to give them a chance. Had a trainer in the first week, read lots of internet sites, watched dvds, read books, went back to my breeder, finally went to the dog club and he really has improved there and loves the training. Even though now he seems relaxed at the dog club, he still will always initially lunge aggressively at most dogs. This general dog club quietness, surrounded by hundreds of dogs, doesn't seem to be translating to the streets! If let close to a dog he will lunge aggressively all the time but if left around a dog he will quieten down and relax with time (say an hour on average). He is great friends with a friend's dog and we just had to watch them at the initial meeting, and after that they were fine. I have attempted to be the leader and think that I am consistent with the basic obedience. They got me to try a water spray and I thought that that was really working, but now think that I may be suppressing his fear rather than solving the issue.

Should I simply persist, esp. with dog club and continued basic everyday obedience...am I being unrealistic about the time frame for changing this behaviour?

Should I take into consideration his being such a small one...that most other dogs are bigger and threatening?

Is it unrealistic to expect dogs to be socially okay with all types of strange dogs in the meetings that occur walking on the street? (I live in Bondi where most other dogs seem so cool, off-leash, seemingly well adjusted)

I really want to address this but find alot of info conflicting and don't want to chop and change... I rang up one behaviouralist who was charging over $500... I like the dog club and my dog likes it too, so don't want to have to give it up...

He has got more responsive to my "Quiet" correction, but still seems pretty agro! People make some awful comments to me as if I am irresponsible...I am trying so hard and don't want my little one judged because in all other areas he is an absolute sweety!

Any feedback would be appreciated...quietly desperate!! :cool:

PS. I do exercise him diligently every day

Edited April 16, 2009 by FlyingFurball

[Cosmolo]

I really feel for you flying furball

What did the trainer suggest to you when you first got him? How long did you try this for? What do you walk him on? When a dog is great at obedience, not so good in the streets/ at home, i find private training is the best answer as the trainer can work where you spend the most time.

Deelee posted a great supportive thread recently that had some good information- i can't find the link but maybe someone else can.

[Kavik]

There are several of us on here that have to deal with dog aggressive dogs - my Zoe is also dog aggressive.

Firstly, I would avoid situations that cause your dog to be aggressive until you can address the problem, as the more it happens the harder it is going to be to change. This may mean walking in a quieter area where there are less dogs, or walking at a different time, or crossing the road when another dog comes, or going into a driveway so you can get more distance between your dog and another dog.

I personally found that persisting with going to the dog club did not help, as people did not respect my wishes not to bring their dog close to mine. What I would have done if I had my time over again is to go to a behaviourist to get some one on one help.

A book that I have found helped me is Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog by Emma Parsons - it deals with getting your dog's attention, and teaching them to look at you when they see another dog instead of becoming aggressive.

[Lady Flying Furball]

I really feel for you flying furball

What did the trainer suggest to you when you first got him? How long did you try this for? What do you walk him on? When a dog is great at obedience, not so good in the streets/ at home, i find private training is the best answer as the trainer can work where you spend the most time.

Deelee posted a great supportive thread recently that had some good information- i can't find the link but maybe someone else can.

Well the first training session we covered basics of obedience training. I mentioned what I had noticed walking him and she said to try and block his sight...not to let him see other dogs, but we had run out of time and it was my first week having him, so I just thought he might settle down. I persisted with the basic training. He is very attentive and good with all commands...a wonderfull "stayer". The trainer at the club says "What a stable dog" and I think, "My god, he is, what's going on?" I do block his sight walking but I think that's not a solution.

I walk him on a basic leash to the collar which they advised at the dog club.

[Lady Flying Furball]

There are several of us on here that have to deal with dog aggressive dogs - my Zoe is also dog aggressive.

Firstly, I would avoid situations that cause your dog to be aggressive until you can address the problem, as the more it happens the harder it is going to be to change. This may mean walking in a quieter area where there are less dogs, or walking at a different time, or crossing the road when another dog comes, or going into a driveway so you can get more distance between your dog and another dog.

I personally found that persisting with going to the dog club did not help, as people did not respect my wishes not to bring their dog close to mine. What I would have done if I had my time over again is to go to a behaviourist to get some one on one help.

A book that I have found helped me is Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog by Emma Parsons - it deals with getting your dog's attention, and teaching them to look at you when they see another dog instead of becoming aggressive.

Thanks Kavik!! This has been my sense too and I have been generally avoiding the aggressive provoking situations... Because at dog club he is calm I do feel okay. The people there are good at respecting distance if I ask... I will look for the book too, but feel at this stage I need a behaviouralist who knows what they are doing...just don't want to give up dog club

[Cosmolo]

Did the trainer give any other techniques to you? There are many, many other things that can be tried but what is used will vary depending on the dog so internet advise is not wise. Dog aggression can be modified in the vast majority of cases with the right techniques.

We are holding a practical workshop in Sydney in early June- your little man may be a good candidate for this too. Perhaps others here can recommend a trainer experienced with aggression issues in your area to get started sooner?

[daccydog]

Hi there Flyingfurball

This post is very interesting as I'm going through the exact same thing, I actually posted in the daccy thread on wednesday eve my problem which is the same as yours I feel mine is definatley a dominance issue ?

I Know i have done everything possible to prevent her going nuts at other dogs , if i use a check chain or a collar she ends up vomiting, because she pulls so hard , even with me saying no no , so now i use a harness which has helped immesley with that particular problem

my dog attacked a beagle the other night , no skin broken but a dominance thing again , the unfortunate thing is we met in a lane way between houses , if only i had seen them coming , and i would have gone the other way,

lets hope someone can come up with some suggestions for us both

DD

[Kynan]

.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Kynan

[Lady Flying Furball]

Did the trainer give any other techniques to you? There are many, many other things that can be tried but what is used will vary depending on the dog so internet advise is not wise. Dog aggression can be modified in the vast majority of cases with the right techniques.

We are holding a practical workshop in Sydney in early June- your little man may be a good candidate for this too. Perhaps others here can recommend a trainer experienced with aggression issues in your area to get started sooner?

After trying a few "internet" general tactics I am starting to realize that I do need to find out what's appropriate for my particular dog and what's going on for him... I'll PM you closer to June if don't find something sooner... I think I get frustrated because he is so trainable and smart...but I haven't worked out what he really is doing and needs! Reassuring to hear that the vast majority can be worked out... I noted in another reply that trainer didn't work on this specifically...we did basic obedience and worked on some separation issues too which showed up early... I focused on those as I live in an apartment...and he really responded. I can leave him now up to 10 hours...but he is very fixated on me nevertheless when I'm home...

[White_Shadow]

1 thing I have tried with Axle as he thought of himself as a hottie at some stage was to grab a bit of the 'skin' behind his neck(not hurting him obviously) and gave him the command to sit, with my hand still holding up onto some of his skin, than tell him to leave it. It didn't take long that the hottie left him & he became well behave in that type of situation

All the best.

[Jed]

I had a dog who did exactly this on leash. Fine with other dogs at their home, or here.

Maybe he was picking up my anxiety - ie, I would expect him to lunge, long before he thought about it, so he started thinking about it. He was excellent on lead, but he was a handful when he lunged, barking his fat head off.

I got a few friends to help me.

Walked him, they walked their dog towards him, but out of range. A fair distance away from him in the beginning when they passed, so he couldn't touch them, and then closer and closer. I sat him, and said "watch, watch", and when he looked at me, I rewarded him. If he went to lunge, I went "uh" and jerked the check chain, again sat him, and rewarded him. And I kept doing it until he would sit and watch me as the dog passed.

Took a while, and I ran out of friends, but it did help. He got to the stage where he would sit to be rewarded when other dogs passed, and finally ignored other dogs passing - when he was sitting. Then I let him continue walking, said "watch, watch" when a dog was closing, corrected him with the chain if necessary, "uh" and "watch, watch", rewarded immediately if he ignored the other dog

This may not help with your dog, but it worked for me.

And I have no idea why he did it - I don't think it was fear, I think it was because he either saw himself as top dog, and was telling them off, or because he thought he was protecting me. And it did take a fair while, and I needed to be 100 consistent, and to be aware of him all the time.

Sorry I am not a trainer, probably one of the excellent trainers will have some better ideas.

Edited to add: If he came from a breeder, he may not have been walked around the streets much. I have a really big area for the dogs here, and they have extra acres to run loose on. I do make an effort to walk them, or take them for rides in the car, paricularly when they are young. However, it is an effort, and I think some of them would benefit from more walking about. A lot of dogs from breeders may be quite experienced at shows, where they are used to a lot of dogs coming and going, but view an encounter with one dog in a street very differently. Because it is different, and if he has never been in that situation that may be adding to this problem.

I'm sorry, that isn't the solution, but sometimes, knowing why they do something is part of the solution.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Jed

[Tilly]

Our GSD was anti-social for a period of time ... I found that I dreaded walking him because he could be so difficult. We had to get a prong collar for him so I had better control over him (he was too strong).

After that when I was walking and if he showed the slightest bit of interest in another dog (before the growling stage), I would give an "Aah" and do a quick turn in the opposite direction and move off in a quick pace and talking in a praising/happy voice to get his attention. When I had his full attention again, I would praise him and then turn again and head towards the "threat". When his attention went back on the other dog then I repeated the turning away and then back again.

It probably looked completely silly to anyone watching ... we did this numerous time over a period of time to the point when we saw another dog he would immediately look at me.

We eventually got to the stage where he can walk past an off-leash area (fully fenced) full of dogs without giving them any attention ... it is all on me.

[Tilly]

oops ... double post

Edited April 16, 2009 by Tilly

[Kelpie-i]

Flyingfurball, owning a reactive dog can be quite disheartening, especially when you've tried to do the right thing from the start only to have it all explode in your face.

You've already been given some very good advice but I will add....just something to keep in the back of your mind.... is that contrary to some belief, dog aggression is not a "dominance" problem. Aggression stems from many situations sometimes from a bad experience early in the pup's life, or lack of socialisation, learned behaviour or sometimes purely genetics.

A well known dog behaviourist from America says that behaviour is like "Snot"...as in it's always the symptom of an underlying problem.

The stem of aggression is almost always fear which then demonstrates itself in either fight or flight responses in dogs. Aggression is always accompanied by anxiety/stress to varying degrees in the dog, especially a dog that is unsure of his actions.

When a dog is completely sure of his actions ie. lunging, barking or biting that actually works for him, then he becomes confident in what he believes should be the correct behaviour to display. This is when we see a dog who seems to stand on his toes, body lunging forward, ears forward...denoting a very confident, yet aggressive approach. Unfortunately this is what we see in most cases and term as "dominance" aggression. In reality, there really isn't any such thing.

A truly "dominant" dog is usually very calm in disposition and doesn't need to prove himself. He is the quietly confident individual that walks off to do his own thing.

Some really good books to read are "Aggression in Dogs" by Brenda Aloff and also "Canine Body Language" by Brenda Aloff. These will give you a very good understanding into aggression and the body language that accompanies it.....it also teaches you to identify micro-behaviours. They are the very tiny behaviours that almost everyone misses but are extremely important in helping you read your dog, thereby managing and dealing with the dog's problem.

Good luck and I hope you find someone close to you who can help you soon.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Cosmolo]

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=160846 here was the thread started- some helpful info and support from memory

[Lady Flying Furball]

Thank you everyone for your support, replies and ideas and experienced suggestions. Many things have struck a chord and it gives me strength to go on and will preserve this thread thus far in a good old Word cut and paste job for future reference!!

Fortunately his behaviour is minimised in its impact by being only 3.5 kilos, unlike some of your big dogs... and makes for easy and light physical handling... I have to watch what I am communicating to him; and see that I just need to refocus and be totally with him when we walk...that translates to not going for takeaway lattes (well it is Bondi!! ) and having free hands for treats and things to reinforce the behaviour I want to reward.

Cheers

Edited April 16, 2009 by FlyingFurball