Great 11 Mo Bc

[Azazyel]

Hi, I'm Ben and my puppy is Toby.

I love my puppy, but I'm a bit confused about all the different advice available and was hoping someone could give me some advice.

Background: Toby is a very energetic 11 month old male (intact) border collie. He is very switched on, and extremely loving (he loves his hugs). He knows sit, drop, heel, come, up, off (drop what you have). In the house he will obey every command as quickly as possible. He is very playful with other dogs and never runs out of energy. We haven't taken him for enough walks recently,but that is improving. I have been following the triangle of temptation, and I can put his food down and forget I need to free him, then come back a few minutes later from another part of the house and he will look very upset, but the food will be untouched. I haven't worked on distraction, i dont have enough time before work in the morning.

Walks: He is great on walks, heels well. But he lunges at cars and snaps as they pass. If he sees them coming, he will go into stalk mode and I am unable to get him out. We have a prong collar, and he is much better now. I can see the cars bother him, but I don't know what to do. He will be good for the first few cars but then he will get progressively worse. I think it might be an age thing.

What should I do for this? I have been trying to minimise the time i expose him to cars (There is a sheltered walk near the beach we take with no cars). Is it because he is too young to concentrate that long? Or because I haven't exposed him to them enough (Or for too long in a session). Or because I haven't taught him to look to me for direction.

Being naughty: If something exciting happens, Toby will be very naughty. He won't respond to commands, etc (I'm sure you get what I mean). He is so brave (or whatever you want to call it), No! doesn't work on him. Friends of ours have insisted we try Bah! (From the spirit breakers... I mean bark busters), but he gets it even less (Because we have taught him No!, and Bah! doesn't intimidate him).

My OH's parents have a farm with alpaca and donkeys, and he will sometimes run along their paddocks trying to rile them (or maybe he is playing?). I know this is because we don't have anything as distracting or stimulating at his home, but we don't spend enough time there to properly train him (I have started walking him on a leash with commands when we are there).

Possessive/territorial: Toby is very good with people, any people. We have never had any problems with him growling at people. But dogs are another matter. If another dog tells him off he will play the puppy and give in, but when the other dog relents he will start doing it again. Today we were at a german sheps house, and when the food was out (our food), he decided the GS wasn't allowed on the porch with us. He would stand in the GS's way and when it had had enough and started getting angry, he attacked (not overly viciously) the GS until it walked away. Another time with some smaller dogs all the dogs were given treats and Toby was very possessive with his and started a fight trying to take ownership of other dogs treats. Thinking about it, all the dogs he attacks are spayed females.

So now I will cover all the bits of information I have heard around.

Is he too young to expect to be able to concentrate on me.

Is he not used to distractions enough (I'm thinking of getting a long leash) (He will start agility soon).

Do I need to have him fixed (I tried reading about the pro/cons, but there is too much biased BS by elitist breeders that I gave up). I don't want him to be easier to handle, I want to be a better owner. I'm not planning to breed him, but I don't want to get him fixed "just because".

Can anyone recommend a trainer/behavioralist in the Perth/Warnbro area (Western Australia) that will be good with this type of dog? (No one like barkbusters though, i've seen what they teach; "Your dog is too stupid to understand commands, just yell till they submit" and "And interaction except yelling, your dog will interpret as submissive")

Should I get a remote e-collar so I can beep him when he is being silly. He is pretty clever, so I doubt I would need a shock one.

Any other comments or suggestions are welcome.

[Nekhbet]

your pup is not too young, in fact he should be training months ago. Dog training and behavior starts at 8 weeks.

SOunds like your dog needs to learn manners more then tricks. THe cars are probably prey drive and some territoriality, you should be working on teaching him cars are too be ignored - his behavior is an accident waiting to happen.

You shoudlnt have to situation specifically train your dog. OK so he doesnt get to see alpacas much but when you say 'come' it shouldnt matter whats happening he comes to you. Go to different places and work on proofing his commands out in distraction. Backyards are boring, of course he'll listen!

As for the desexing - well considering his behavior I dont think a little less testosterone would be such a bad thing for him. As for attacking other dogs you need a trainer to help you overall as I think you're too focussed on the 'trick' element and not the overall picture of how the dog needs to relate to his world and you :D

I dont know of any trainers in Perth, hang about and I'm sure some DOLers will help you out with suggestions

[persephone]

Agree with Nekhbet

Yourdog is not a puppy anymore.

he is from a working breed- and as such he may have a stronmg instinct to herd and chase.

if nothing else is available for him to herd/stalk/chase, well, cars are what he has in plenty! :D

re: the alpacas/donkeys:

he will sometimes run along their paddocks trying to rile them (or maybe he is playing?).

he is attempting to do what his instinct tells him... to WORK

I can see the cars bother him,

The cars aren't 'bothering' him.

the inability to use his brain and body in a purposeful way - that is 'bothering' him

Sounds as if he needs much more WORK... not just house manners and walks on leash.

Agility sounds good- but try for a herding course as well...

[Reddii]

I haven't worked on distraction, i dont have enough time before work in the morning.

I really hope you are joking. You've taken on a working breed - you need to MAKE TIME if your dog is going to be anything other than a PITA or a back yard ornament. I know this sounds harsh, but if your boy is anything like my girl he is going to need a LOT of work to keep him sane and make him a reasonable canine citizen.

From what you have said your dog is not ready to start agility - you need to start by getting your little man to focus on you and not everything else around him. A really good flyball trainer once said to me - 'You have to be Ronald McDonald to your dog'. He meant that you have to be the centre of their world, the most exciting thing in their life. At the moment you are not.

PLAY with him, but make him earn the play, don't just start the game, eg: ask him to sit before you let him play. Start slowly and build up the time you ask him to work before he gets his reward. My two dogs now run to where the toys are every time I set foot into the back yard. When I pick up a toy they run to where we train and wait.

You won't be allowed to use your prong collar at an agility club so best to get rid of it now if you want to start in dog sports. (No, I'm not prong collar bashing, I've never used one, but that is because I'm not allowed to use one where I train.) Your dog is a clever dog and you need to use this to your advantage or he will do exactly what he wants when he wants to do it - you can't have a prong collar on him all the time (or any of the time at agility).

Again, before you start at agility you need to get his 'attacking' other dogs under control. If you are not confident in doing this then get some help. If he attacks another dog at training it is likely that he will be asked to not come back - the best way to make sure this doesn't happen is to get him so focussed on you he doesn't see other dogs.

All this said I agree with the other posters - you need to teach your dog some manners and then start to think about what you want to do with him activity wise. This is all going to take time - he is not too young to learn, start now.

I don't want him to be easier to handle, I want to be a better owner. I'm not planning to breed him, but I don't want to get him fixed "just because".

Don't get him fixed 'just because'. Read what is out there and make an informed decision - hunt down real informed literature, not opinionated crap. Some people say desex and it makes the dog easier to manage, some suggest there are health risks associated with desexing, and others will say there are more associated with not desexing. Ultimately you need to find a vet you trust talk to them and make your own decision about what is best for you and your dog. If you choose not to desex you have to be prepared to manage your dog accordingly.

Cars

You really need to solve this problem. Best way to do this is to think about how to keep him focussed on you or at least 'with' you so that he knows he has to do what you ask when you ask it. My boy had a similar fetish. We ended up making him sit every time a car came towards us (and we live inner city so there were plenty). When he sat and looked at me (you are using TOT so that shouldn't be a problem) he got a treat. Now cars are not an issue - same with other dogs - I'm more exciting.

I really think you need to seek out someone with a bit more experience with working dogs (or even just dogs in general) and look to them for advice.

[Azazyel]

After I posted I remembered about some "drive training" I read about. All the advice seems linked to that. I've just done some reading around here on it so forgive me if it sounds wrong. I would seem to me that he is extremely prey driven. If he is focused on something that is moving he won't even bother taking food from me, that why treats haven't worked with cars. So, and correct me if I am wrong, I will try to build his prey drive with his toys and use them as rewards for his training. Should that make me more important to him when he has a prey urge?

[Reddii]

After I posted I remembered about some "drive training" I read about. All the advice seems linked to that. I've just done some reading around here on it so forgive me if it sounds wrong. I would seem to me that he is extremely prey driven. If he is focused on something that is moving he won't even bother taking food from me, that why treats haven't worked with cars. So, and correct me if I am wrong, I will try to build his prey drive with his toys and use them as rewards for his training. Should that make me more important to him when he has a prey urge?

Without seeing your dog it is hard to answer all the questions. It's about finding out what is going to turn your dog on more than chasing cars.

Some dogs are food focussed, some are toy/prey focussed, some respond better to correction methods. (comments about prongs stand) You need to find someone to work with to help you work out what your dog needs and be consistent with that.

[Nekhbet]

prey training is not as simple as just building drive in a dog and rewarding. It can backfire where the dog is SOO driven and riled up you then shoot past the point of training to see the dogs brain explode from excitement.

If you want to train in drive I would go see someone who has been using it and has experience in harnessing the drive. Although when it comes to things like cars I would want to see some hardcore proofing before your dog runs out and gets hit. See if you can find someone that used to or still trains Schutzhund dogs as their training is heavily focussed on prey drive and precision control through it.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...t=#entry2812764

Remember that food and pack drives are also something to be utilised - prey training is not for every dog or every owner. Yes you need to work or proofing and focus BUT you need to show some stability in your dog before you go off and do agility in with other dogs. Over excited dogs, especially some breeds, can redirect all their anxiety and nip or fight or ignore you completely.

[Azazyel]

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...t=#entry2812764

That basically echos what I find everytime I look for information on local people. Nobody in WA owns dogs... I've tried tooking on Youtube for drive training videos, but nothing. I am taking him to my local club for obedience now, that way it is easy for me to find somewhere with distraction for him. Hopefully their training methods mesh with what I'm expecting. There is another training listed on the Delta (Saw them somewhere on this forum) website, sent her an email. Are there any resources people recommend for this (books, etc)? Or is it a matter of finding a good trainer?

[Nekhbet]

http://leerburg.com/dogtrainingebooks.htm

he also has a very good forum

[Azazyel]

Jackpot!! Thanks!

Also, your link in the previous post has messed up how the forums appear. I have to keep changing the layout mode. It doesn't seem to be remembering my preference.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Azazyel

[persephone]

your link in the previous post has messed up how the forums appear.

If you have firefox- just rightclick, and select 'open links in a new tab'

or.. if using IE.. open another IE page- then copy/paste the link! That way you can have both open at once.

[laeral]

Jackpot!! Thanks!

Also, your link in the previous post has messed up how the forums appear. I have to keep changing the layout mode. It doesn't seem to be remembering my preference.

Did this to me also. I had to go into options at the top right of the thread and select 'standard'

Oh just saw that you had done this. Im not sure why it wont retain the right layout for you sorry.

Edited April 14, 2009 by laeral

[poodlefan]

There are some brilliant dog trainers in WA and one of the best does obedience and agility.

My advice is to join one of the leading training clubs and get some personal instruction with your dog. He needs to become accustomed to working under control around other dogs before he can start agility training anyway.

[fainty_girl]

He is very playful with other dogs and never runs out of energy. We haven't taken him for enough walks recently,but that is improving.

How do you tire him out normally? Does he play fetch with your or swim? Or anything like that? My Kelpie X Tilly is very energetic, so everyday I put a lot of effort into tiring her out. She plays fetch at off-leash dog parks everyday...playing fetch keeps her focused and it tires her out. If Tilly did not get enough exercise, then she would become a real problem.

But with the problems you are having with your dog, i'm guessing that letting him off the leash is not even an option for you.

Is he too young to expect to be able to concentrate on me.

Is he not used to distractions enough (I'm thinking of getting a long leash) (He will start agility soon).

I think you can get an 11 month old dog to concentrate on you. Maybe just start in quieter surroundings, and build up the amount of distractions gradually. Although my dog Tilly loves busy dog parks, I have found that she does not listen very well if taken to a busy park. Now she is being taken to quieter parks, where I have found her to be more responsive and better behaved.

Do I need to have him fixed (I tried reading about the pro/cons, but there is too much biased BS by elitist breeders that I gave up). I don't want him to be easier to handle, I want to be a better owner. I'm not planning to breed him, but I don't want to get him fixed "just because".

If you don't want to breed him, then get him desexed. There are enough unwanted dogs around in the pound.

[Nekhbet]

If you don't want to breed him, then get him desexed. There are enough unwanted dogs around in the pound.

I dont think its cut and dry. I have 2 entire dogs and yet in 5 years no accident. If there is a reason for entirity then keep it, and that extends further then just breeding.

saying that I think with the way the dog behaves towards other dogs losing his testes wouldnt be a bad thing

[fainty_girl]

If you don't want to breed him, then get him desexed. There are enough unwanted dogs around in the pound.

I dont think its cut and dry. I have 2 entire dogs and yet in 5 years no accident. If there is a reason for entirity then keep it, and that extends further then just breeding.

saying that I think with the way the dog behaves towards other dogs losing his testes wouldnt be a bad thing ;)

Stupid question, but why do some people keep their dogs entire if they do not intend on breeding them?

[luvsdogs]

Here's one of many links about spay/neutering. I decided to let my border have one heat & she was spayed 3 weeks ago at 14 mths.

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm

I would get rid of the prong collar & please don't use a shock collar. A border is a soft dog & will fall apart with harsh training methods. I was also going to suggest you get in touch with APDT to find a trainer in WA.

http://www.apdt.com.au/trainers/directory.html#wa

Have you considered clicker training? There are examples on youtube.

[Kavik]

If you don't want to breed him, then get him desexed. There are enough unwanted dogs around in the pound.

I dont think its cut and dry. I have 2 entire dogs and yet in 5 years no accident. If there is a reason for entirity then keep it, and that extends further then just breeding.

saying that I think with the way the dog behaves towards other dogs losing his testes wouldnt be a bad thing ;)

Stupid question, but why do some people keep their dogs entire if they do not intend on breeding them?

Working/sporting dogs are often kept entire

[Azazyel]

I have looked at clicker training so much. He is very smart, but I know nothing about it and wasn't sure if it was too late. The last couple of days I have been going hard with the toy and he seems to be responding. His ears are naturally up, but today I came home and they were awkwardly down (One was half down but twisted). We went to visit his favourite person (OH's nana) and he mostly ignored her and didn't get worked up at all. So a lot of his problems may have been him finding walks too boring, but after a few tug of wars he looks so exhausted.

A quick question about prey drive, I've read some of what K9 has written, when he says "tie-out" does he mean I tie the dog back (with a harness probably) and tease the dog so it can't get the toy? Is this how you build drive, by frustrating the dog?

I'd like to keep him entire because I'd feel really bad if any of the theories on increased risk of cancer are true, and because I'd like to get him trained as a herder (Both our families have farms, not many animals yet though)

A border is a soft dog & will fall apart with harsh training methods.

I'm familiar with the breed, but this one is weird. The friends of our who love Bark busters tried their stuff on him and he thought they were having a fit. The prong collar was because I wanted to get him exposed to traffic, but it was too dangerous on a martingale. They really aren't as bad as your imagination would have you believe. I'm hoping I won't need to use it eventually (obviously), but I'm 23 and it is made of steel so it might help with a later dog, or someone elses.

I'd already emails on of the trainers at that site, but maybe she has changed email address. I'll call her tomorrow.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Azazyel

[huski]

I would get rid of the prong collar & please don't use a shock collar. A border is a soft dog & will fall apart with harsh training methods.

Each to their own but IMO a properly used prong and e-collar aren't harsh methods ;)