Knee Problem, ? Cruciate Injury

[grabonsam]

My border collie boy has hurt his knee. Most likely a very small tear in cruciate ligament - from 2 vets. Was advised to give him time before thinking about surgery. He's 5 weeks post injury and doing short walks on lead. He doesn't limp when he walks, takes full weight on the leg when he stops for a wee and sprints from the house to the back yard when he hears a bird and I've left the back door open. He jumps on and off furniture without problem whenever he gets a chance.My concern is that as soon as he's standing still he rests the leg - just puts his toes on the ground and doesn't seem to put any weight through the leg unless he's distracted by something. I don't know if I should be getting surgery for him, waiting a bit longer or getting a specialist opinion in case it's something other than the cruciate thats been missed because the cruciate seems like the obvious problem. I'm a bit confused as to why he can weight-bare without limp when he walks but yet rests the leg as soon as he's standing still - anytime, not just after a walk. Also, if it comes to surgery how fo I get good independent advice as to which of the 3 options for cruciate repair is best? He's just turned 6, has been very fit and active until injury and weighs 26.5kg. I know that sounds heavy, but he's a big boy. Normally weighs 25 and ribs can be felt very easily at that weight. I'd appreciate any advice.

Thanks

[Erny]

My border collie boy has hurt his knee. Most likely a very small tear in cruciate ligament - from 2 vets. Was advised to give him time before thinking about surgery. He's 5 weeks post injury ...

Don't know how much help I am but two things come to my mind when I read your post.

1. The general time to allow for ligaments to heal is about 8 weeks, I think.
   
2. A long time ago I took a ligament injury from a kick by a horse. One of my knee ligaments tore - according to the specialist, it was hanging on by a thread. It healed without surgery although the treatment for 6 weeks was minimise exercise - I was in a full splint for 6 weeks.
   
3. When the splint came off I could walk ok and once I had re-stretched the ligament I don't think I noticeably limped. However, when standing, I do recall that I favoured my good leg and purposefully had to make sure doing so did not become a habit.
   
4. When your dog is running/playing, his mind is elsewhere and not on his leg. That doesn't mean the leg is fine. Likely means that he's not conscious of discomfort at the time.
   

If it were me, I'd probably not look at surgery at this time and would give the ligament more time to heal and strengthen. But that's just my own unlearned thoughts and opinion. Also, perhaps look at swimming your dog for exercise. Minimum impact yet it would help in building muscle tone to support the ligament. For me, once the splint came off, I did bike riding exercise for this reason. Mind you .... I went against Doctor's orders and not only was the splint off earlier than the 6 weeks, I was actually back up and riding my horse by 6 weeks. But that lends itself to another story which is not relevant here and not something I'd recommend, even though I think I was lucky by getting away with it.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Erny

[laffi]

I would say 26.5 kg for a border collie is WAY too much!!!!! Doesn't matter that he is a 'big boy' unless he is not a pure breed border collie.

I would think he would benefit to loose at least 6kg, esp now that he is injured.

I would say he needs more crate rest so he can't sprint for the birds or jump on furniture. I would limit the exercise to controlled exercise on leash only for another couple of weeks.

[ness]

Laffi there are a few BC males who would be 22kg and solid muscle so I don't know it might be ok if he is a solid individual. Not sure whereabouts you are located but I might recommend if you can find a decent one making an appointment with a chiro/muscle person. If you can find one with a veterinary background even better. They might be able to suggest whether surgery is in fact required. My older girl was pulling up intermittently lame and non-weight bearing on a back leg and she was rushed off to the vet because she refused to put weight on it and the vet sent her home with anti-inflams and possibly a partially torn cruciate. I got her into her usual chiro as soon as I could and he treated her and sorted out the issue.

I would also recommend swimming as a form of exercise .

[dancinbcs]

With dogs the usual treatment for a cruciate injury is at least 6-8 weeks crate rest, only allowed out on lead to toilet. I would definitely make him rest more than you are doing now, especially the racing around when he hears a noise. One episode of that could set him back weeks. At this stage he doesn't sound like he needs surgery but treatment from a chiropractor who does greyhounds with laser or some acupuncture would be very helpful. Do anything it takes to try to get this to heal without surgery because he will have to be crated for at least 12 weeks following surgery. Not fun with a Border Collie, they are their own worst enemies when it comes to injuries.

If it does get worse, not better and eventually ends up a surgical case make sure they drill a hole through the bone to put the new ligament through rather than just loop it around the small bone notch. A friends Border had the latter surgery as they though it would cause less arthritis but after 12 weeks in a crate he managed to snap the bone notch as soon as he was able to move around off lead. Back to surgery to have it done the other way, 12 more weeks in the crate and finally success.

[Starkehre]

I am certainly no vet, however, if it was me, I would be resting the dog much more, atleast for another 2-3 weeks, then reassess the option for surgery. Short daily straight walks on leash. No free running, jumping or twisting. Encourage quiet behaviours only if possible.

Others have mentioned weight. He may well be over weight, but whether he is or is not, if you do decide to keep him somewhat quieter for the next few weeks, then he will no doubt need his food cut down considerably, if he is generally so much more active. It certainly will only be of benefit to him to be carrying less weight with this injury.

Once the ligament has healed, it may require stretching or low impact exercises, such as swimming and manual stretching.

The injury will probably not heal or heal well with all this action he is currently doing.

Forget that the dogs wants to do it and can do so without limping. When he is chasing etc he is in drive, therefore all else goes out the window, his ligament pain pales in comparison.

I hope you get it all sorted out.

[dancinbcs]

I would say 26.5 kg for a border collie is WAY too much!!!!! Doesn't matter that he is a 'big boy' unless he is not a pure breed border collie.

I would think he would benefit to loose at least 6kg, esp now that he is injured.

I would say he needs more crate rest so he can't sprint for the birds or jump on furniture. I would limit the exercise to controlled exercise on leash only for another couple of weeks.

I have bred Borders for 26 years and the males I have had here with me have weighed 21kg, 18kg, 26kg and 23kg, all fit and able to feel ribs. The three heavier ones were all about the same height, just under 21"which is the top of the standard, but different body lengths and amount of bone make a difference. There are plenty of male Borders taller than this so that can also make a difference. My dog that was 26kg was the thinnest of all of them because he was the most active. Most of the male Borders I have known weigh about 21- 22kg but there are still plenty above and below this that are still fit and lean.

[laffi]

Laffi there are a few BC males who would be 22kg and solid muscle so I don't know it might be ok if he is a solid individual.

This dog has a knee injury so his 26kg is DEFINITELY not helping. He would be SO much better off super lean/skinny that on the 'big boy' side.

[Kelly_Louise]

To answer your question regarding which of surgeries (should it come to that) to choose. My best advice is to research them thoroughly on the net.... read read read so you know what each one involves. Secondly, be guided by the specialist. For heavier dogs, IMO and it is my personal view, the osteotomy type surgeries are preferable. I was also advised this with my cattle dog. Out of the options the specialist gave me, I chose the tibial wedge osteotomy. Basically in very non technical terms, they make a break in the bone below the knee, cut out a wedge and rotate it so as to change the slope of the knee. They then screw in metal plates to keep it all in place. We were advised by another vet to go for these types of surgeries for heavier dogs (>20kg) over the 'scar tissue build up' type (sorry not sure what they are called).

But that's my view... and having personal experience I couldn't be happier with the results of 2 tibial wedge osteotomies. But it was a long recovery (my old girls bone healed slowly). About 2 - 3 months in confinement (in my case x 2). It was painstaking, but worth it.

I hope it doesn't come to surgery for you, but if it does, don't panic. The results if done properly, and aftercare followed religiously, can be fantastic.

If you want any further info, please let me know.

In the meantime, for conservative treatment - get as much weight off as possible and rest, no rough play, no big jumping etc. A joint supplement could help too - Sasha's Blend, Joint Guard etc.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Kelly_Louise

[grabonsam]

My border collie boy has hurt his knee. Most likely a very small tear in cruciate ligament - from 2 vets. Was advised to give him time before thinking about surgery. He's 5 weeks post injury and doing short walks on lead. He doesn't limp when he walks, takes full weight on the leg when he stops for a wee and sprints from the house to the back yard when he hears a bird and I've left the back door open. He jumps on and off furniture without problem whenever he gets a chance.My concern is that as soon as he's standing still he rests the leg - just puts his toes on the ground and doesn't seem to put any weight through the leg unless he's distracted by something. I don't know if I should be getting surgery for him, waiting a bit longer or getting a specialist opinion in case it's something other than the cruciate thats been missed because the cruciate seems like the obvious problem. I'm a bit confused as to why he can weight-bare without limp when he walks but yet rests the leg as soon as he's standing still - anytime, not just after a walk. Also, if it comes to surgery how fo I get good independent advice as to which of the 3 options for cruciate repair is best? He's just turned 6, has been very fit and active until injury and weighs 26.5kg. I know that sounds heavy, but he's a big boy. Normally weighs 25 and ribs can be felt very easily at that weight. I'd appreciate any advice.

Thanks