Best Way To Approach Breeder.

[Fyscha]

Wow Chocolate, that is a very disturbing article indeed!!

Honestly it's amazing what people will justify in the name of money!

AARRRGGGHH!!!! :D

I think my head is going to explode just trying to work out the best thing to do for our dog!!

I dread to think what life will be like whe we fially decide to have children!

I really wish I still lived in Melbourne, I had a great holistic vet down there years ago, he was an absolute legend,

probably still is. I might give him a call about her diet.

Redbullamstaffs - thanks for the vet recommendations, much appreciated.

[Danois]

Fyscha - I looked at the article (it was simply the first that came up on google) - I also looked at about 5 others (all from within academic institutions or written by someone at Phd level and within last few years) and they pretty much advocated the benefits of additional Vit C supplementation in dogs.

If in doubt - ask the breeder as they will know from experience what they have seen work.

My opinion comes from readings, speaking with qualified people and also from personal observation of use of it in 2 different dogs when pasterns were down and feet were looking east west. I changed nothing else in the diet but added Vit C.

[kiahzen]

Dogs may produce their own Vit C but during times of rapid growth and teething for a young puppy they require more than normal as the dogs resources of vitamins become depleted much faster than they can reproduce.

Vit C plays many important functions in bone formation, alleviating joint pain, preventing cystis, preventing bladder stones. Vit C is excreted via the kidneys totally unchanged therefore it acidifies the urine making the bladder unsuitable for bacteria to live.

Vit C is definitely a justified supplement especially in fast growing puppies and lactating bitches.

It is not a cure for a genetic deformity it does not alter genetics, Vit C is a widely used supplement in growing, pregnant, lactating, working and stressed pets there is no concern for Vit C toxicity in our dogs.

It is not always necessary to supplement a healthy dog with Vit C but during times of illness, injury, stress, fatigue, old age and serious health conditions their own resources of Vit C become depleted much faster than they can be produced.

It enables the immune system to properly use calcium helping to strengthen bones, joints, ligaments and is also important for the formation of collagen.

The internet is great at finding arguments for and against using anything but considering that it doesn't actually cause any harm then i would and do use Vit C within the first 6-12 months and for dogs with injury or whom are suseptible to joint pain or inflamation.

This puppy obviously has an issue that goes deeper than cutting his toe nails, sure long toe nails can cause a dogs feet to become splayed and flat. Looking at the pictures i wouldn't think that it would be the cause for the OP's dog to limp or to appear in pain.

To me i would make sure that the dog isn't running or sliding on the slippery floors, put matts down (sounds like the OP is already making this change.)

Keep the nails trimmed to ensure that they don't exasberate the issue.

Walk the dog on gravel or pebbles to build up the muscle and tendons in the legs and feet, I use this method and always try and get my dogs to walk on lose gravel daily.

Limit walking on soft surfaces, eg sand or lose dirt

Not only would i be adding Vit C to the dogs diet but i would also be adding some glucosamine and chondroitin, I use a joint formula something similar to http://www.rufusandcoco.com.au/Information...fault.aspx#info

Changing the diet can also help there are so many options out there for dogs, normally change to an adult dry food and include meat on the bone eg: chicken wings, beef briskett or tail bones. I always try and give equal quantity of bone to meat.

Everyone's opinion will differ so it may also be helpful to take on board the suggestions from others and combine it with your own research.

You can also try swimming the dog, I find this is a good low impact form of exercise that really helps to build the chest muscles therefore helping with the dogs conformation. My older male puppy appeared to be east west, i used swimming as a part of his treatment and to help build up the chest muscles he now stands straight.

I swear by a good Chiro or Bowen therapist, My 4 month old puppy appeared to be cow hocked and roached in the back, a trip to the chiro found that she was out in her Pelvis therefore adding to the issues with her standing. Getting them checked out at least once a month during their rapid growth period. Puppies will throw themself around the place and it is very easy for them to get hurt.

I wish you luck and i hope that you find some answers to your puppies issues.

[Fyscha]

Fyscha - I looked at the article (it was simply the first that came up on google) - I also looked at about 5 others (all from within academic institutions or written by someone at Phd level and within last few years) and they pretty much advocated the benefits of additional Vit C supplementation in dogs.

If in doubt - ask the breeder as they will know from experience what they have seen work.

My opinion comes from readings, speaking with qualified people and also from personal observation of use of it in 2 different dogs when pasterns were down and feet were looking east west. I changed nothing else in the diet but added Vit C.

Yeah, I googled it as well, and read a few other articles, but it doesn't detract from my level of frustration. I am basically trying to take everything on board and make the best decisions I can. Chocolate's article is disturbing, although at the moment I'm going to maintain the increased vit C, at least until I see the vet again. I believe at the moment it will do more good than harm. I do realise that the majority of advice I get here, while welcome and greatly appreciated, can't be taken as gospel as no-one has seen the dog and I don't know anyone's back ground either.

I find myself checking back on the thread every day though, because I know that the changes I have made based upon advice received here are all positive ones, like vit c, more throw rugs, a manicure regime to rival my grand mother's. We've increased her bones, she always had them regularly, but now she gets them every day.

One thing though.... Can someone please explain why people have suggested switching to an adult dog food?? It's been mentioned a couple of times but I don't think anyone has actually said why.... or was it because there is less protein?

It's all swimming around in my head. Information is getting lost, I'm on night shift at the moment, at least that's my excuse... :D

[kiahzen]

Fyscha there are just as many debates on swapping puppies to Adult food as there are with Vit C :D

The main reason that i have heard is the protein level in puppy food.

Puppy food is actually designed for puppies but sometimes i find that it can cause them to grow quite rapidly

Everyone feeds their dogs different and everyone will have a different opinion on food, basically feed what your dog does best on. Obviously at the moment your dog is not doing great with their growth so i would be changing what you feed, this is just my own personal opinion though....

I was feeding Advance large breed puppy with a mix of adult advance, my puppy looked to be growing really fast so i swapped to pro plan large breed puppy mixed with pro plan performance.

I have changed again now to Artemis grain free and so far i find this food to be fantastic both of my dogs have only been eating it for just under a week but already their coat has gone extremely shiny, much less mess to clean up and they can't get enough of it.... Sometimes feeding is trial and error but i find personally i swap dry foods around to keep some variety, going from Advance, Pro Plan and now to Artemis

It does not really answer your question and probably seems more confusing basically you have to chose what your dog does well on, its all trial and error...

[Erny]

... and as many are saying loose gravel, or big stones, we have blue metal dust in our runs, and it really helps with flat feet and pastern problems, bought a dog with bad feet, and in about a month of having on the blue metal dust his feet were nice again.

What's the loose gravel/big stones/blue metal dust do that helps them so much? Is it uneven ground to help strengthen tendons/muscles/ligaments? Is it related to grip? Or both?

Just interested.

My boy had a fairly bad case of carpel laxity syndrome which showed up 3 days after bringing him home. Kept him on Eagle Pack Holistic large breed puppy and his legs have straightened well especially by comparison to what they were.

[Chocolate]

at the moment I'm going to maintain the increased vit C, at least until I see the vet again. I believe at the moment it will do more good than harm.

Which form of Vitamin C are you giving? Ester C would be the best form because it is ph neutral which is better for the Kidneys.

Edited April 12, 2009 by Chocolate

[sas]

In Danes we tend to give Vitamin C when the dogs look a bit flat footed. From the recent Dogs NSW mag it has an article on Supplements...

As a dog's liver is capable of synthesising Vitamin C, it is not an essential additive to the diet. Vitamin C assists in the cohesion of structural tissues, so it affects bone cell maturation in growing dogs.

While there is no current indication for the addition of Vitamin C to dog diets, it can be given, but preferably only in moderation - 250mg daily is quite enough for a growing puppy of a larger breed.

Low-dose Vitamin C may be of benefit in fast growing puppies that are sore in the bones and joints.

Everyone is always going to have an opinion and I guess my first stop would have been my breeder because if they could very well give you the dosage rates of Vitamin C that they find work best with their puppies.

I don't really understand why you haven't contacted your breeder, it doesn't need to be about fault but to say "Hey, this is what we're experiencing at the moment, would you have any experience in it or would you be able to give us any advice, would you like to speak to the vet".

Personaly I would have gotten a second opinion, perhaps this is something you still may like to do?

[Fyscha]

I don't really understand why you haven't contacted your breeder, it doesn't need to be about fault but to say "Hey, this is what we're experiencing at the moment, would you have any experience in it or would you be able to give us any advice, would you like to speak to the vet".

Personaly I would have gotten a second opinion, perhaps this is something you still may like to do?

I did contact the breeder, I've mentioned that in this thread about 5 days ago or so... she was the reason I started the puppy on vit c in the first place. I had been thinking of it because other people here had suggested it and that was one of the things that she said to do.

The only problem was that she really only said to use good old vit c tablets that you can get from anywhere. At the moment, because of where we are that is all I have access to. Although I will be trying to get some ester c as chocolate has suggested.

I have also, as mentioned, made an appointment to get a second opinion. Obviously, when we are told our puppy will have to live with a limp at 6 months old, we are going to see someone else about it. We have an appointment at a vet and a chiropractor next Monday.

Cheers for the info on vit c dosages, as my breeder wasn't very specific about that. Really only said give her a tablet a day which is (i think) 500mg, and I did feel that was a bit high for a little puppy.

Edited April 13, 2009 by Fyscha

[Danois]

I was giving my dog 1500mg a day. As I said in a previous post - dogs excrete any excess so you cannot over dose them.

[Fyscha]

oh yeah - haha cheers Danois.

[Miranda]

If a chiropractor is unable to help I suggest that you get the dog's elbows and shoulders checked by a competent vet. Hopefully the problem is muscular

[sas]

I don't really understand why you haven't contacted your breeder, it doesn't need to be about fault but to say "Hey, this is what we're experiencing at the moment, would you have any experience in it or would you be able to give us any advice, would you like to speak to the vet".

Personaly I would have gotten a second opinion, perhaps this is something you still may like to do?

I did contact the breeder, I've mentioned that in this thread about 5 days ago or so... she was the reason I started the puppy on vit c in the first place. I had been thinking of it because other people here had suggested it and that was one of the things that she said to do.

The only problem was that she really only said to use good old vit c tablets that you can get from anywhere. At the moment, because of where we are that is all I have access to. Although I will be trying to get some ester c as chocolate has suggested.

I have also, as mentioned, made an appointment to get a second opinion. Obviously, when we are told our puppy will have to live with a limp at 6 months old, we are going to see someone else about it. We have an appointment at a vet and a chiropractor next Monday.

Cheers for the info on vit c dosages, as my breeder wasn't very specific about that. Really only said give her a tablet a day which is (i think) 500mg, and I did feel that was a bit high for a little puppy.

I was actually just replying to your intial post not 6 pages in hehehe

I use Ester C Tablets and 1500 MG a day but that is for a giant breed and only when required as it can cause tummy upsets and skin issues.

[Fyscha]

I was actually just replying to your intial post not 6 pages in hehehe

I use Ester C Tablets and 1500 MG a day but that is for a giant breed and only when required as it can cause tummy upsets and skin issues.

ha, yeah no worries. there is a fair bit of text to cover now. We are going on a drive to Western Sydney on Monday to see a vet and a chiropractor. Both come highly recommended from DOLers. The vet is also a breeder who has a special interest in developmental problems in puppies. I think we are on the right track now, well I hope so anyway!

[*Lolapalooza*]

Good Luck on Monday!

It will be intersting to read of your progress I hope all works out :p

[Fyscha]

OK, well for those interested the results are in. From the chiropractor anyway. He checked out her feet as well as all the joints on her other legs as well and basically, she was loose all over and he said all her joints hyper extend to some degree, well not to some degree, thay all hyper extend. He could pull her back legs out until they were straight, which apparently is not meant to happen. They should stop before they straighten right out. He also said is far as her general health goes this shouldn't cause any major problems. I asked about an increased chance of arthritis and he said he didn't think so. At the moment she is on restricted exercise until she stops growing. Walking only. No running, jumping, tug of war, no puppy games. Which we haven't been doing since this started anyway. We just have to allow the cartilage in her joints to develop as best they can while she is young, not put any undue pressure on anything, and basically that is the best thing we can do for her. He said the main thing it would mean is that she doesn't really stand properly & wouldn't be worth worrying about as a show dog. Which we don't do anyway.

But that comment leaves me wondering - and I can't help but return to the question of whether of not the breeder could have known about this before hand. What do breeders check when they are deciding what dogs to keep as show dogs?? Do they go through all their legs etc and check movement or is that something that they wait and see?? Her feet werent flat when we first got her, not like they are now but the potential was obviously always there. If the breeder has kept 2 brothers and 1 sister from the litter as show dogs surely she must have checked this stuff out. Maybe I'm clutching at straws here, I really don't know what stuff they look at when deciding what to keep and what to sell.

[WreckitWhippet]

Ask your breeder what they look for before rehoming and what their vet checks when the pups are vacc'd and chipped.

An ethical registered breeder would not rehome a puppy with any apparent problem. If such pups were to be placed, the puppy buyer would be made fully aware of the puppies condition.

A breeder that is looking to keep something for themselves, will select the puppy or puppies with the best conformation and the attributes they are looking for.

You really need to speak with the breeder, rather than speculate.

[Fyscha]

Yeah I know I need to talk to the breeder, and I intend to. I'm just at a loss as to how to approach her about it . I have discussed the problem with her and she's basically said that there was no problem when she was a pup, but has been helpful with asking other breeders about it. But this last diagnosis, that being that the problem is through her entire body, not just her front feet leads me to believe that the problem was there at a young age and really I'm asking here if joint mobility is something that a breeder would check out or not in a litter of pups she is using as show dogs.

The thing is that it was a three hour drive to get the pup when I did and the breeder lives out of town. She said she would meet me in town and I said a number of times that I would rather drive out to her place. She assured me it would be too much further, I might get lost, she was in town anyway, she always took her pups in to town and this was just the way she did it. Basically I didn't go and view her parents or the rest of the litter. At the time it did make me feel uneasy but we had been communicating so much before hand, she had been great with sending through photos and I trusted her so went ahead. I know it was my choice to go through with the purchase, but it's always been in the back of my head. My husband was never happy with how it played out and has always said so.

I know it's all speculation, maybe it's all in my head, but I don't know what to say and I don't know what I want to gain. Well I do, if this was deliberate I don't want it to happen again. I believe if we had known about the problem we could have taken measures to prevent the flattening of her front feet.

I paid good money for this dog. If the problem eventuated after the purchase then it's my problem, but I've had two animal health professionals tell me that it didn't. It pi**es me off but I don't want to go and talk to the breeder with all guns blazing and not know what I'm talking about. So I'm asking if this is something that a show dog breeder would look at in the litter of pups.

[WreckitWhippet]

Unless you are looking for some for or refund or partial refund, I wouldn't take it any further with the breeder.

It's just one of those things that can happen to a puppy and it's a case of getting on with it and doing the best you can by the pup now.

You could ask the breeder if they knew about it, but who knows if you'll get a truthfull answer.

[ellz]

If you didn't notice the problem when the dog was a baby, why would the breeder have noticed it? And even if they did, that's probably precisely why they didn't keep her as a show dog for themselves.

But to be frank, as I have said before, breeders aren't in possession of crystal balls and there is nothing to say that it is just an isolated issue or a developmental one. Puppies develop at different rates and in different places and just because the laxity is all over doesn't mean a thing IMO. It could be environmental, it could be dietary, it could just be a good old fashioned case of bad luck.

And even if it WERE an easily recognisable issue, it would only be recognisable if the breeder (or somebody else, like a vet for instance when doing vaccinations etc) had seen it before and knew what to look for.

As for not going to the breeders' home. I don't think that is an issue. I don't always have prospective puppy purchasers visiting my home either. It is a security and safety issue for me and as most of my puppies are sold via the internet and/or word of mouth, it isn't really necessary.