Barf Diet - Scientific Evidence

[ncarter]

I don't know a great deal about the BARF diets but i know it works for my dog, its better than cooked food and it seems more natural than feeding processed foods all the time. I was wondering if there is any scientific evidence to back it up, that BARF and feeding predominately raw food can be better for a dogs health than processed dog foods. The reason I ask is because I was reading dogs life and the vet on there (who often gives bad advice or actually doesnt answer peoples question at all) was bagging out the BARF diet and saying how it was just a fad which i thought was overreacting.

Edited April 7, 2009 by ncarter

[Leema]

I'd say there probably isn't. Companies that produce dog food fund research into their dog food, but there's nothing similar for BARF or raw food.

I am hoping to be corrected with scientific research. ^_^

[Tru Borders]

No Idea if there is any scientific evidence.

But here's my evidence, strictly non factual

I came to DOL and asked a few silly amateur noob questions. All of those were answered by fab peeps here.

The more I thought about the BARF diet, the more it felt right.

I have always said that dogs, although domesticated now, still have that wild instinct deep down, so BARF just makes all that sensible.

As a BARF beginner, I have still not made full transition, but since I introduced Raw meat and bones to my Sibes, their teeth have improved alot, the plaque is diminishing every day. Their breath is not smelly at all, I could sit face to face with them and not turn away! Their Poo is less smelly, consistent and easy to clean up. The dogs love seeing me get their Raw Meaty Bones out of the fridge at dinner time. They love Fish!!! Unfortunately, they do have fish breath after wards though, but the benefits they get from fish make fish breath ok I know just how much I am feeding so I can monitor intake much easier, especially when trying to drop some kilos off my fat boy Asher :p

I know exactly what im feeding.

Here's a page I just found, havent really read in depth, but it tells us about ingredients in Packaged dog foods.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients

So after i had a look at a few things, which I have no idea about, I feel so much better knowing what my Sibes eat on a nearly complete BARF diet.

I want to add that I do not disagree with feeding packaged and dry foods.

I have owned dogs my whole life (as pets) and they have always eaten packaged and dry foods and they all lived long and healthy lives. The BARF diet is just something that appeals to me and makes sense to me. My Sibes agree.

ETA - This is what is working for my Sibes at the moment. Please remember that other peoples experiences with specific foods may not mimic your own and with some experimenting with foods you will hopefully find what is right for your K-9

Edited April 8, 2009 by huskyheaven

[Cavandra]

There probably isnt anything to support Natural feeding other than common sense........

If humans ate a processed diet instead of natural healthy foods that we are designed to eat , then we get sick......Why is it different for animals???

Dogs are the same as wild dogs, they have the jaw & teeth designed to eat meat & bones, they can not grind & chew like a human, there has been no evolution, their intestines are the same, designed to break down raw foods, foods that humans cant eat without getting sick, so why would it be that we are feeding them & treating them like they are humans when they are not humans

There is no scientific evidence that annual vaccines were ever necessary, but doesnt stop Vets pumping animals full of it, yet if you tell them they cause harm to the animal they try to ridicule folk over it..........Its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Dogsfevr]

The theory is simple.If your dog does well on what its feed who cares.

Many here will push BARF & tell people there doing ill by there dogs.Reality is there are millions of dogs around that are feed various diets that live very happy healthy lives.

What works for one doesnt work for others.

Diet is personal & individual.

[karly101]

I highly doubt there would be much (apart from whats sponsered by dog food companies). The reason being.. to do it.. you'd have to have dogs from similar genetic backgrounds and run a long term feeding trial. At the end you'd most likely have to kill alll the animals to truely find out how they are doing (unless you can run the study for their natural lifespan whatever that is which could be 15 years) and of course you have to control for as many other factors as possible as otherwise you won't be able to say whatever you are seeing is because of diet. Then lastly the problem of doing such a study is that its a lab test and what you see in the real world might be different! And then getting the ethics approval to do such work. I think there were some studies on cats a long time ago where they fed raw food versus cooked food (they discovered the taurine thing then)... not really an adequate test of raw food versus commercial. I know a researcher working on ferrets who has proven that commercial food causes tooth disease (breaking the long held myth that dry food cleans teeth)... so there are smaller studies like that, that are applicable.

I would disagree with the vaccination thing.. many vets now aren't seing illnesses that were once common due to vaccinating.. I would agree that we don't need to give them as often (and many vets are coming to this thought as well) and hopefully titre testing will be more common.

[neatz]

There is no scientific evidence that annual vaccines were ever necessary, but doesnt stop Vets pumping animals full of it, yet if you tell them they cause harm to the animal they try to ridicule folk over it..........Its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

In case you haven't read the name on your BARF packet it's Dr Billinghurst. A Vet .

I agree with settrlvr, feed your dog what it does best on.

[sandgrubber]

In case you haven't read the name on your BARF packet it's Dr Billinghurst. A Vet .

Because it's written by a vet doesn't mean a book is scientific. The way Billinghurst uses evidence would not get a passing mark in a science class.

Despite people saying "too expensive", it should be possible to do a study of BARF diet outcomes without huge expence by doing health surveys of dogs who are fed BARF and dogs who are fed commercial diets. I'd say a first cut study of this sort could be done as an honours project in Vet School. Surveys are not as good as feeding trials, but they do yield scientifically valid information. Wasn't MDBA doing something of this sort?

[Aussienot]

The reason that there is no peer reviewed scientific evidence on raw feeding is that there is no money in proving it works. No multi-national company is going to fund a study to prove there's another way to feed your pets. And expecting vets to fund a study to prove the effects of a diet could decrease vet income, well, that's unlikely to happen soon.

Just like there is no "scientific" evidence on the effect of feeding processed food that isn't funded by the manufacturer. (There might be some profit in proving that it doesn't work, but that hasn't happened either.)

I don't think a survey could be "scientific evidence". It would be collection of emperical data that could be used as basis for feeding trials, but it would not prove anything. There are a number of environment, genetic and health-related issues that need to be factored in to isolate what role diet plays.

[karly101]

Unfortunately as an honours project it wouldn't work.. it's only a year.. plus good luck getting the ethics approval to do it plus it would be a very expensive project! Possibly the only way you could do it would be to get shelters to do feeding trials but even that will have issues (again the results you get may not be inline with what you see in a home environment in dogs not stressed etc).

Studying smaller aspects.. like the effects on teeth is much more doable. I'm suprised more people haven't looked at this aspect as yet.

[Akay]

On the Vets All Natural website, Dr Bruce Syme goes into a lot of detail about natural diets and how it can help with certain things. I just briefly read it, but it looks like there might be some scientific evidence in the paper (on the right of the page) that's titled "A Raw deal" at this address: http://www.vetsallnatural.net/members.html

There's another paper that's named "The use of Grains in Petfood". In that one he says that grains are important because dogs eat grains when they eat the stomach of prey (which, interestingly, he says they eat first). But these grains have been fermented in the stomach and crushed, so that's why he ferments and crushes them in the food he makes. I was reading this the other day when I was considering moving to a prey model diet, but the argument he makes in this paper is too compelling to change from BARF.

It all makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.

[Ah Ngau]

If you are a researcher, investigating this subject isn't going to get you the brightest career path. There are a whole lot of other very interesting things you can do which are easier to get grants.

Anyway, there are at least 2 related papers:-

1. Lonsdale T. [1995], Periodontal disease and leucopenia, Journal of Small Animal Practice 36, 542-546

2. Glasgow A. et al., Progress Report, Role of Diet in the Health of the Feline Intestinal Tract and in Inflammatory Bowel Disease, http://www.cfa.org/articles/health/role-of-diet.html

The first one is very important politically, it was first accepted to be published, then got withdrawn. Things got ugly and a lobby group was formed by a few Aussie vets as a result. The whole thing spilled to the internet and the rest is now history.

However, the science alone is on very shaky ground because of the resources limit. The sample size is small and there is no control group. A lot of further work needs to be done.

The second paper is the famous "taurine paper". It almost put raw diet firmly on scientific ground. But the taurine issue crowded out the positive result of raw diet. Now the paper is mostly used to disapprove BARF or raw diet. Very few vets is brave enough to tell a client with an IBD cat to feed raw with a little taurine supplement.

[Cavandra]

There are actual studies of wild dog colonies proving that they rarely /if ever eat the intestines of any prey....

[Cavandra]

There is no scientific evidence that annual vaccines were ever necessary, but doesnt stop Vets pumping animals full of it, yet if you tell them they cause harm to the animal they try to ridicule folk over it..........Its all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

In case you haven't read the name on your BARF packet it's Dr Billinghurst. A Vet .

I agree with settrlvr, feed your dog what it does best on.

Not sure exactly why it is "MY" BARF packet????? I dont feed prepackaged foods...I feed Biologically Appropriate Raw Food that I get myself........I dont agree with a balanced diet in every meal, so wouldnt dream of feeding a commercial product for that reason. Let alone the expense of feeding it LOL

[BigDaz]

Dogs are the same as wild dogs, they have the jaw & teeth designed to eat meat & bones, they can not grind & chew like a human, there has been no evolution, their intestines are the same, designed to break down raw foods,

So your dogs diet is purely meat and bones? No vegtables or additives that could be considered healthy for the dog.

[Akay]

post deleted.

Edited April 9, 2009 by Akay

[Cavandra]

Dogs are the same as wild dogs, they have the jaw & teeth designed to eat meat & bones, they can not grind & chew like a human, there has been no evolution, their intestines are the same, designed to break down raw foods,

So your dogs diet is purely meat and bones? No vegtables or additives that could be considered healthy for the dog.

Yes, they also get offal, fish occassionally, raw eggs in the shell...They get sprouts & herbs that I grow myself... occassionally too, as dogs do crop & graze grasses , also pick up rubbish & fermenting fruits on the ground etc, they are scavengers, and will actually eat anything, so I do give them anything, like my own leftovers, but rare & spasmodically.....As for supplements , they get them if they need them, as I rarely go to any Vet, I prefer to treat my dogs at home with natural remedies &/or homeopathy......

[borzoimom]

To me its more of what BARF is not in comparision with kibbled diets or even commericalized raw food. Let me toss out a series of well known facts here.

First of all ( kibble rendition and most commercialized raw diets), have a series of problems of the ingredients they use. Remember that the original source for commercial ( both kibble and canned) was actually to use the refuse left over from cereal food makers. With grains not fit for human consumption, preserved with additives that could not be fed to livestock tht were for milk products or meat sources, the dog food industry had its start. They took those grains- rejected for anything from being molded, incorrectly rendered etc and started that as a one primary source.

Second- the meat processing industry, meats that are 4D ( not fit for human consumption etc) also needed something to still at least be used for. Things like cancerious tumors, beaks, feathers, to even damaged pieces of meat ( broken wings etc) were the next step of ingredient.

Now- here comes into play the 3rd step in the process. These " unstable" products need to be preserved until it can be processed or sold to a dog food rendering plant. Lets add some preservatives ( ethoxyquin was there for quite awhile until numerious complaints or unknown cancers started showing- making it politically incorrect in food, and why dog food now states " no ethoxquin:.. anyway- add bha, bht etc..) Now- if I had say plant A and I have this product, I can preserve it with any of a number of things, and then sell it to Plant B for them to turn it into their dog food. *** This is the kicker!- PLANT B does not have to list what PLANT A added in their product on purchase. ** Recently in the US there are coming laws that all companies for human foods must list all ingredients. . ( Originally set so due to food allergies with ingedients hiden. )

So Now onto number 4- Plant B now takes this 4d meats, rejected grains, and now renders it to process into their food ( whether it be canned, or kibble etc). Plant B only has to list what they do to produce their product. ** And this is where the next step of the problems shows up- The manufacturing process uses such high temperaters that this now kills most of the vitamins- especially water soluable vitamins. ( Vitamin E, C etc.) Secondly- since ( if you look at your dog food label- you will see in all dog foods the imbalence of Calcium and PHosphorus. ** Here comes another problem- those two vitamins are bonding agents with each other- if not in equal amounts - like Calcium is higher, you will get calcium deposits in the animal. If phosphorus is higher you get deteriorating cartiledge in the joints...

*** ARe you starting to see the picture here???? So lets throw together a series of outcomes- worse case scenio even worse grade meat sources, molded and rendered grains, processed at high temperations, lacking in water soluable vitamins, imbalenced with calcium and phosphorus, and add - to add density to the food ( ie weight) so the packages would weight more for the consumer in purchase,) - this swells when water in added. ( That would be the worst food)

If you do a good food, controlled meat sources and grains, you still have the problem with the vitamin mixture due to the type of processing. - and remember- the original plant that sold the sources prior to processing the dog food, they do not have to list what chemicals they used to preserve it.

I started feeding raw in 1984. Various reasons. However there are several things I know. I know what I put in my dogs bowls. I know at least its fit for human consumption. I know all ingredients have at least passed the level of inspection that I am also eating. ( well- they eat raw chicken and I eat cooked- but same thing.) I know the food I am giving my dogs is USDA inspected and the plants that made it are also inspected- at least better than dog food company plants are.

In brief ( lol ha..)- I can give you countless personal information on the benefits of BARF with my own dogs. However- these are personal "witness" to the situation with the exception of one clear cut situation I was told by specialists for one of my dogs. - But to end this- the final "science' here is more so- as I stated, more so what is bad in commercial diets, and how is that avoided in a raw diet.

(**** one note here- a comment was made about not questioning as to vegetables in a dogs diet. Keep in mind the amounts are very small. If a dog were to catch a rabbit, consuming the rabbit -especially intestines etc, the dog would get what ever b type vitamins from whatever it was a rabbit ate by the intestine. )

[Crisovar]

My own eyes and records over many years and generations of animals who I have raised the way I have are enough proof to me that what I do is working for my animals.

I too believe that the animals in any study would have to be bred for generations for any information gathered to be useful, you would not simply be able to study large number of animals, you would have to be breeding with each an every generation.

[Hastings]

I have also been feeding a diet of raw chicken wings, carcasses, etc ,lamb on bone, some beef in chunks, I do use Dr Bruce Symes Vets All Natural as well, but not every night, Last night they had All Natural and a big piece if lamb flap each, even my 13 yr old girl loves this. We also have a mum and pups, 10 little ones, now just over 3 weeks, all fit strong and healthy and i believe particially due to the diet we feed. She is feeding all herself with no worries , and it is her first litter. Eating tons of raw food and in lovely condition.