Cosmolo Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Oops- yes my mistake, my brain thought i had written it! In both cases it has been separation anxiety, will edit now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Dont know about the science of it but I do know that generally speaking my hyper dog is much calmer since I reduced the amount of exercise she was getting. Previously she was getting an hour plus brisk onlead walk most days and on the other 2-3 days she would go on a hard 40 min jog with my OH. She was quite fit. Like Ruthless we cut down for our housesitter to one half hour walk each day leading up to us leaving her (so he could take her to a tiny fenced park nearby for exercise). I was amazed when contrary to my expectations she became considerably calmer! So now she gets a 40 min walk most days, one jog per week and one day off. I am fascinated by Kelpie-i's post, thats some very interesting research that might help me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 I wonder about the effects with dogs that are reactive outside the home vs sep anxiety? The reduction in stress/ stress hormones would occur if i kept my reactive dog at home because i am removing the trigger for the responses that lead to the stress. But how does this help sep anxiety of the owner still leaves the house- therefore the trigger is still present and responses could be heightened due to the increase in energy/ lack of stimulation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Cosmolo, I wasn't aware you were talking about SA, so the Brenda method may not be entirely useful in this situation. However there would be no harm in applying it anyway. I am not convinced that reducing exercise will help alleviate SA. Is the dog a resuce dog and how severe is the SA? I suppose you might want to discuss the use of some calming drugs with the owners (BTW, I am not an advocate of these but in some situations they may help take the edge off the anxiety). This would be your call though. But how does this help sep anxiety of the owner still leaves the house- therefore the trigger is still present and responses could be heightened due to the increase in energy/ lack of stimulation? Personally I think it would make things worse. Unless for a medical reason, the dog shoudl receive mental stimulation and physical exercise daily mixed with obedience and quiet time as well. It's all in the balance. JMOO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Yep- sorry Kelpie i, totally my fault saying one thing in my head and typing something different. Interesting discussion nonetheless! I am yet to see one of the dogs, the other we are dealing with genetic predisposition to sep anxiety but the dogs are well managed now without drugs but with some natural supplements, and plenty of exercise and mental stimulation amongst other things! Drugs were discussed too but not necesary at this stage. Not a rescue dog and high level anxiety unfortunately. Agree with your last sentence Kelpie i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 (edited) Cosmolo, I wasn't aware you were talking about SA, so the Brenda method may not be entirely useful in this situation. However there would be no harm in applying it anyway. I have for a long time believed that there is a link between SA and Leadership (not necessarily to the exclusion of genetics). So IMO Kelpie-i, Brenda's methods which at their core IMO help to improve the relationship between dog and owner, would certainly not go astray. I also think that there is a link between hypothyroidism and anxiety in some (many?) cases. Cosmolo - I still think you need more info or clarification on exactly what the 'trainer' told/explained to your client. I can't help but think there was more to it than that. Unless, of course, the advice was that of the franchise organisation I was thinking of earlier. Edited April 7, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Nope really Erny that was it- oh and to throw water on the dog when it howls. Totally agree re the leadership- anxiety link, although in some cases even when leadership is rectified, the anxiety stiill remains as elements have become learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 (edited) Nope really Erny that was it ... Was the advice via a franchise org? If it was, then it gives me an idea of why that advice was given. And I don't agree with it under the circumstance you describe/refer to. Some reduction in superfluous attention - yes. But reduce exercise to nothing for 2 weeks? Doesn't ring true or well for me. Totally agree re the leadership- anxiety link, although in some cases even when leadership is rectified, the anxiety stiill remains as elements have become learned. My highlights Yes it often does. And depending on how that has learnt to be expressed by the dog as to how and what one does to improve on it. But any external link that is helping to feed the dog's anxiety needs to be broken/weakened. Edited April 7, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Not sure if its a franchise org. And totally agree with both statements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I think I may know which franchise this was....they use the method based on Bill Campbell's "primer" but unfortunately they take it waaaay above and beyond Campbell's recommendations and usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Hi Just a guess... to devalue the owner to the dog. Especially if the walks and playing are done randomly not in a daily pattern or routine. cheers M-J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 m-j good point!! I believe reducing exercise all together will only make the anxiety worse and/or may introduce new/worsened symptoms. There are other, more affective, ways of "devaluing" the owner which are not as stressful on both dog and owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) However in Cosmolo's OP, the suggestion is to stop exercise to reduce fitness rather than to devalue the person, suggesting this trainer is linking the dog's fitness level with the SA. The only thing that would come of that is a dog who perhaps isn't running anxiously around the yard so much because it tires more easily (although to be honest, I don't think any difference would be that noticeable - anxiety is adrenaline driven and that can keep a body going well beyond its normal energy thresholds), but cannot imagine how its fitness level would have any bearing on its anxiety level. Regardless, I agree with Kelpie-i. Not exercising the dog to devalue would most likely come with ignoring the dog other than only to give the necessary basic care. And that's a pretty extreme methodology to use, as I know Kelpie-i is also aware. IMO, exercise can help increase confidence and in part, that's what many SA dogs need. Exercise also assists with leadership as it is a time during which the owner can apply obedience practice. And leadership is what many SA dogs need. So no, I don't get this supposed "lower fitness = lower anxiety" theory. Whether I agree with what this trainer has said or not (and I'm inclined to "not"), I still think there's some information/explanation missing. Edited April 9, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Thats all i have been told they said Erny- now by two different people. There was no explanation given and no compensatory exercises to replace such stimulation. As unbelieveable as it sounds, thats what the clients took away from the consult. Of course i am aware that sometimes clients misunderstand or misinterpret advice but it sounded pretty clear cut from their re telling of the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 (edited) Sorry - I wasn't meaning to suggest your client is not telling all Cosmolo (although of course, as you'd understand, we always wonder). The "missing info" could just as easily have been the omission of explanation by the previous trainer. Edited April 9, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I believe reducing exercise all together will only make the anxiety worse and/or may introduce new/worsened symptoms. There are other, more affective, ways of "devaluing" the owner which are not as stressful on both dog and owner. I agree, as you're not really (well inadvertently you are) working on the dog's pack drive, in the context where the cessation of activity is being used to reduce fitness. the suggestion is to stop exercise to reduce fitness rather than to devalue the person, suggesting this trainer is linking the dog's fitness level with the SA. Seems a bit odd to me but as you have said maybe bits of info are missing. I could understand the reasoning if environmental enrichment was being used (only source of good times that happens and it happens minus owner, the rest of life is reasonably boring), but I imagine that would only work with a dog that wasn't overly anxious. cheers M-J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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