E-collar Training:

[sandgrubber]

I'm doing e-collar training by correspondence with two Labradors. I love the collars, and the basic messages seem to be getting through. However, I'm having a problem with Molly, who seems to anticipate the stimulus and comply before commands are given, thereby avoiding situations where stim may be applied. Molly is an extremely biddable pup (1.5 yrs). I'm using e-collar training on her because she has a history, during off lead walks, of getting a bee in her bonnet and running off across a busy road to find a place where I sometimes take the dogs to swim . . . or to find a yummy bit of roadkill.

For example, first exercise . . . dog goes out on long lead. Stim . . . guided recall. When she turns to come back, turn off stim and praise. Molly did this fine a few times, then she decided it was better not to leave my heels, making it difficult to do the exercise. We've since graduated to recall under distraction and off-lead in a fenced field, and she's doing fine with these . . . but still shows a tendency to stick to my heels.

Sit at distance. Same problem. I stake her out. At first she sits fine in response to stim and even holds the sit for a few minutes. But by the fourth or fifth repetition she decided that it's better to sit immediately when staked out, making it hard to continue the exercise. If I try sit-at-distance with a long lead or off-lead she comes to me first, then sits.

The simplest ways around these problems involve giving commands on the run. Unfortunately, I've got a nasty case of tendonitis and cannot run. I know there are two-person ways around these problems, but I live on my own. I can get helpers from time to time . . . but not every day.

Has anyone encountered similar problems? How do you teach the dog not to avoid situations associated with the stim? Am I doing something wrong?

Btw, I've gone over her level of stim several times, and had a friend with dog-training background independently verify the level, so I doubt the stim, at 8 or 9, is too high.

[Cosmolo]

A) Give it time, some dogs do become sticky to start but in my experience this doesn't last long

B) Make sure she wears the collar at other times when you're not training

C) Do some sessions where you give no commands and don't make each situation predictable, ie- practice recalls in different situations and remove or change the predictors of the command where possible- eg the tie out for sit etc- remove or do a totally different exercise on the tie out for 1 week.

Do you have a release word?

[Just Midol]

Velcro dog is a good thing imo, it's because the dog "learns" that it is only stimmed away from you. I start teaching sit when this occurs to break that idea.

Other than that, Cosmo hit the nail on the head. If you want a group specific to e-collars jump onto Lou Castles website and he has a Yahoo group with a whole bunch of e-collar users & trainers. I get the threads sent to my email address and I read every single comment/post just to learn.

[Guest Willow]

How do you teach the dog not to avoid situations associated with the stim?

Isn't that the whole point of negative reinforcement? They learn to "switch off" an aversive by ceasing a certain behaviour. In your dogs case she has interpreted being away from you results in an unpleasant aversive, so she wants to stick with you where it's safer.

That is the risk with using an aversive...the dog may not interpret the trigger for the aversive in the same way you do. You feel you are teaching her that if she doesn't come when called, she gets a buzz, which gets turned off when she ceases the behaviour and comes to you. It sounds like she is interpreting the buzz as a punishment for actually being away from you, rather than for not listening to the recall.

Maybe this method is not suitable for this dog. What other things have you tried?

[Cosmolo]

When do you apply the stim? I know some people do it before the comand is given, i always do it after the command.

The idea is to teach the dog that the stim occurs when there is non compliance to a command- not just when the dog is away from you. Thats why its important to reward the dog for being away from you when they are doing things you want them to be able to do- sniffing, playing etc.

I have never had a dog after e collar training not leave my side (or owners side) as thats not my aim. I find it normal for dogs to get slightly sticky for a short period of time until they learn that other behaviours away from you are also fine. I have had the same thing happen when using other techniques (without aversives) so this is not exclusive to e collars or aversives.

Edited April 5, 2009 by Cosmolo

[Just Midol]

Yeah, to me a brief period of velcro dog shows me the dog is learning how to avoid the stim. He has it completely wrong of course, but it shows learning is going on.

[sandgrubber]

The method I'm using begins by applying the stim before the command (Focus and Control). The idea is to teach the dog he can turn the stim off by complying with the command. The stim is set low enough that she feels something, but not pain. The Dogtra collar allows 128 levels of stim . . . so you can fine tune it and use a level that is more of a tickle or an irritation. Both of girls have a much more negative response to the "pager" on the Dogtra collar -- something like a vibrator on a mobile phone -- than they do the the electronic stimulus. Recall is initially taught without a verbal command, just guidance from a long lead.

Molly has learned recall by conventional methods (positive reinforcement with play rewards) and is normally quite good at coming when called. The problem is that distractions may override her obedience when she is at some distance, and she takes off, often bringing the other dogs with her. That can be dangerous.

[Cosmolo]

As i said, i don't use the e collar stim before the command as i don't want the stim to become the command and i believe it limits how much you can teach. If you use the stim in advance for 2 different commands i think you can create confusion and a little unnecesary stress. I also think its more likely to create a velcro dog indefinitely. JMO

[Anna H]

Sandgrubber - I'm not a trainer so cannot give any advice, but I found my dog became a 'velcro' dog during the initial stages of training; it soon passed however once she realised what I was asking of her... but anytime she got confused again, she would return to her velcro spot right next to me.

[sandgrubber]

Thanks, everyone, for advice. I'll try a few things . .. more time with the collar on but inactive, varying time at which stimulation is applied, alternating recall with other commands, and patience. If I can get my Yahoo acct working, I'll also have a go at the e-collar discussion group.

It's better to have her a bit velcro than all over the place . . . hopefully soon she can return to off lead walks. If that's the only thing we accomplish with the e-collar, it's worth it.