Weave Training

[4 Paws]

I have been going to one club for agility and they have been doing the2 x 2 method,,we are still only using 2 poles.I went to another club last night that some of the 1st club also go to and they train weaves using guides.

Just wondering what peoples opinions on the 2 different methods

[Kavik]

With Zoe, the club I went to used guides and you lured them through (poles were in straight normal alignment). I found that Zoe, who was normally a fast dog, was slow and unsure and we never developed an independent weave with her. I would not personally use that method again.

With Kaos I have used a combination of the channel method and a 3 pole shaped entry, and he is now weaving in competition despite not much practice outside of the backyard I have been retraining Zoe (who is 9 now and never will compete, just for fun to see if I can) with a 3 pole shaped entry and slanted poles.

I haven't given the 2 x 2 method a go, but shaping the entry is probably the most helpful thing I was shown :rolleyes: by Vickie. I am interested in the 2 x 2 method, looks like an interesting way to train the weaves, only thing I am confused about is changing the reinforcement line from straight at the beginning to angled later on, wonder if that would confuse the dog. Haven't seen the DVD yet, probably explained in there.

[skip]

Hi 4 Paws,

I am also learning weaving at the moment. Originally I didn't have access to much training and did the channel method. Never really got the poles together but one dog was starting to get the idea. Enough to weave but without much speed and not from both sides evenly.

I am now doing the 2 x 2 weave in the first club. I find the concept easy to understand even thou I find it hard to get the motivation needed. So it has been a interesting lesson in motivating my dogs and handling skills.

I went to the second club you mention once and the guide wires/fence on the weave poles spun my dogs out completely. Because they could weave a bit they got confused by the fence thing-oh and thought they should jump it. Made for a really weird jumping weave pattern. Confused them so I didn't do it again. My poor dogs!

I think the 2 x2 method gives the dog a chance to really understand what it has to do, teaches the dog to enter from any angle and at speed. Sounds good thou daunting, I am finding it a big learning curve.

And Kavik - I am probably wrong but I don't think the re inforcement line changes? I did watch the DVD and don't remember it on there either. I might ask at training next. Hope it doesn't as I have enough hassle aiming in the correct place as it is.

[J...]

Haven't used guides so can't comment on that.

Love the 2x2 method, have just got the DVD and will be working through some sections we skipped or didn't proof well enough (I used the method described in her Shaping Success book so missed the proofing and really tricky entries work).

On the DVD Susan works with a green dog that doesn't belong to her. Over 3 short training sessions a day she has the dog weaving 6 poles with some really difficult entries in less than an hour's work when totalled. I realise that is Susan herself, but I didn't have too much issue with teaching Darcy (who is my first dog) using the method from the book with no backup.

[Kavik]

I have read the PDF but not seen the DVD and from the diagrams on there when you first start with 2 poles the reinforcement line is straight through the middle of the poles, but then you change so that it is at an angle later? Or maybe I just understood it wrong

[laffi]

I have read the PDF but not seen the DVD and from the diagrams on there when you first start with 2 poles the reinforcement line is straight through the middle of the poles, but then you change so that it is at an angle later? Or maybe I just understood it wrong

The reinforcement line never changes. It's always the line that the poles form if they are/were straight.

[Kavik]

I am looking at the PDF now, and the first step has two poles with reward line going straight through the middle of them, not the direction the dog would be going if weaving. The third step has the reward line at a different angle than the first step, more in line with what the dog would do if weaving. That is what I don't understand. Unless I am reading the diagrams wrong, but that's what it looks like to me

Good thing I am not using this method right now, would have buggered it up

[laffi]

I am looking at the PDF now, and the first step has two poles with reward line going straight through the middle of them, not the direction the dog would be going if weaving. The third step has the reward line at a different angle than the first step, more in line with what the dog would do if weaving. That is what I don't understand. Unless I am reading the diagrams wrong, but that's what it looks like to me

Good thing I am not using this method right now, would have buggered it up

OK at the beginning the weaves are open so the line doesn't look like the normal line you are used to. Then you start closing the weaves (rotating so they are closer and closer to the normal line you are used to). The line doesn't change but the poles are not aligned with it at the start; they are open so the dog gets used to the easiest line before making it harder and closing the poles.

Does it make sense ?

[Kavik]

Sort of like the channel being open at the start if using that method?

Is the aim to train always going the same way (throw reward the same way) but move the poles?

I just noticed when I gave it a little go with Zoe (poor Zoe, my guinea pig but I can't trial her so might as well try new stuff! That was before trying 3 poles) that they assume they are going straight through the poles and look for the reward, what I don't get is how do they then realise to start going in a different direction, that the reward will no longer come from going straight through the poles but going angled through them?

Maybe I am just slow but I don't understand how you are supposed to get that shift.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Kavik

[laffi]

Sort of like the channel being open at the start if using that method?

Is the aim to train always going the same way (throw reward the same way) but move the poles?

That's right

I just noticed when I gave it a little go with Zoe (poor Zoe, my guinea pig but I can't trial her so might as well try new stuff! That was before trying 3 poles) that they assume they are going straight through the poles and look for the reward, what I don't get is how do they then realise to start going in a different direction, that the reward will no longer come from going straight through the poles but going angled through them?

Maybe I am just slow but I don't understand how you are supposed to get that shift.

From the beginning, with just two poles, you reward on the same line and start varying the entries. It really helps to visualize this line and throw the toy/food on that line. If the dog understands the line of reinforcements it's easy to start moving the poles.

[JulesP]

Think Kavik is talking about the second step, so before you close the poles. You start off going straight through the poles, and then change to going on an angle (before you add the next set of poles). The dogs line doesn't actually change Kavik. You are supposed to rotate the poles, so the poles change not the dog.

I wondered why she said to angle the poles!! Now I know.

Did the DVD give much more info from the SS book?? Am about to start with Poppy.

[Kavik]

Yes Jules, that is the step I mean.

But how does the dog know the poles changed not the reinforcement line?

I guess I am thinking of it as where do I want the dog to go and where do I put my reinforcer? Straight ahead of me, behind me, reward at me , reward at dog? Reward straight through poles or reward at angle through poles?

You seem to be looking at it as poles relating to the reinforcement line, and I am looking at it as reinforcement line in relation to poles

The dog only has the 2 poles as reference points as to what it is supposed to do and where to go. If you have been reinforcing for going straight through the poles, how is the dog to know you no longer want this but you want the dog to angle through the poles? The dog can't see your imaginary reinforcement line.

[laffi]

Yes Jules, that is the step I mean.

But how does the dog know the poles changed not the reinforcement line?

I guess I am thinking of it as where do I want the dog to go and where do I put my reinforcer? Straight ahead of me, behind me, reward at me , reward at dog? Reward straight through poles or reward at angle through poles?

You seem to be looking at it as poles relating to the reinforcement line, and I am looking at it as reinforcement line in relation to poles

The dog only has the 2 poles as reference points as to what it is supposed to do and where to go. If you have been reinforcing for going straight through the poles, how is the dog to know you no longer want this but you want the dog to angle through the poles? The dog can't see your imaginary reinforcement line.

Draw an imaginary line on the grass (between two trees to help you). Put the poles so the center between each them is always on this line.

You always throw the reward on/along the line regardless where the poles are (how open they are) and where the dog is coming from.

On her PDF the reward line is always where you throw the toy. Ideally you try to throw it along the line to make it clear for the dog to go on this line.

Her DVD is really good to illustrate this.

[JulesP]

The reinforcement line doesn't change. Just the poles change. You stand in the same spot and send the dog on the same line. The dog should think it is running the same line but it will look different to you, because the poles have moved.

[Kavik]

Yes, that is what I thought.

But what I want to know is how is the dog to know that? The dog doesn't know that you want them to go in the same direction all the time regardless of where you put the poles. Unless you always train in the same spot, and you teach them to always go north? Mostly they know where to go in relation to the equipment right? You don't throw the reward until the dog is going in the correct direction right? Or do you throw the reward first?

ETA? Are you supposed to always train in the same spot then, always going in the same direction? Same part of yard?

Edited April 1, 2009 by Kavik

[laffi]

Yes, that is what I thought.

But what I want to know is how is the dog to know that? The dog doesn't know that you want them to go in the same direction all the time regardless of where you put the poles. Unless you always train in the same spot, and you teach them to always go north? Mostly they know where to go in relation to the equipment right? You don't throw the reward until the dog is going in the correct direction right? Or do you throw the reward first?

I would suggest you work in the same spot until they have good entries and can go through 4 poles

You don't throw the reward first.

ETA they generalize pretty well though

Edited April 1, 2009 by laffi

[Kavik]

Ah, OK, gotcha now

Still, might wait til I actually see someone do it before trying it

I understand the other methods better.

[JulesP]

Yes I think you should have been standing on the same line each time. Same spot etc. If you chuck the toy before the dog has gone then you would be luring not rewarding.

[kelpiechick]

Kavik - it is really hard thing to visualise if you haven't done it.

When you first start out, you need to get any preconceived thoughts of 'weaving' out of your head or you will have trouble visualising how it works. (I couldn't get if from the book and DVD- although I though I had it - but it made sense when I put it on the ground so to speak)

Especially when you are working the more difficult entries with just 2 poles, (working the arc) and your dog is going in off your left - if you can't imagine the 'final product' with the poles eventually going down the reinforcement line, it looks as if you are sending your dog in with an incorrect entry (right shoulder) - Susan Garrett got lots of questions on her blog about this too.

Remember this is based on SG handling, which is the Derrett system, so the dog also gets a cue as to which 'end' of the poles to enter from the side you are set up on. You don't stand in the same spot all the time, or this won't work.

Varying your position also challenges the dog's understanding.

For the more difficult entries (dog is facing 'wrong end' of poles from which I want to enter and actually has to run past poles and turn around to make correct entry) if you set your dog up on the right of you and then the dog entered the 'close' end of the row of poles, which is not what I want - then the dog would actually have to move in front of me and cross my feet to get in - this is a big 'no no' in the GD system so for a dog that understands the consistency of being handled in this way (which would certainly be Susan's by the time she got to introducing weaves) it is a strong cue.

And depending on which side of the poles you are working the arc from, in the Derrett system there is only one possible side that you could have your dog on when you are sending them in. (Other side would be a 'motherflicker') So they are always on your left when turning into the more difficult entries on the left and the reverse for the right. This is the only thing that I don't think she goes into detail about on the DVD - but it was my 'penny drop' moment with the whole process once I figured out how it related to my position in the handling system.

I retrained my younger kelpie's entries over Summer and because he has only ever been trained in the GD system, he seemed to catch on to understanding which end of the poles he was supposed to enter from very quickly.

However my older kelpie is a retrain into the system and often reverts back to first handling taught. He really struggled with the concept of which end to enter from for a long time - offering me way more incorrect responses (wrong end of poles) for the difficult entries than the other kelpie did - and continues to do so.

If you go on to Susan's blog and go back to some of her older entries she actually has some footage of some of her readers training the first few steps and she points out what they are doing well or not so well (with their permission of course).

Watching these might help you understand the 'which end of the poles' concept - it did for me.

[Kavik]

Thanks for the reply kelpiechick