Spey/neuter.

[felix]

I'm not arguing for or against - but balanced representation and emphasis is important. It's probably also critical to remember that the dog owners on DOL tend to be more educated than the average dog owner....and many are actively looking for information which is quite different to others I've met!!! Many (not all) dog owners are inherently poor at compliance - that's why vets promote commercial dog foods, yearly vaccinating (and associated check ups) and desexing. Sure beats terrible diets/associated health problems and unwanted animals. People who research raw feeding, vaccinations and keeping animals entire and carefully weigh up the options are not the problem!

This is spot on Spotted Devil.

I completely agree with this.

[pebbles]

IMO it's not the average family who has the 'oops' litters, there's always been the odd one of those but most families will do the right thing, yes, ok spey the bitch if you want a bitch and aren't prepared to confine her at the appropriate times but do this at a reasonable age and know what any puifalls may be. This is where the Vets should give advice on the pro's and cons as not everyone researches, they're just hammered to get the dog desexed without being helped with handling an entire bitch, as for neutering dogs, I'm not going to even go there! I've known many people with entire pets and there's been maybe 2 or 3 'oops' litters which went to good homes. The glut of pups cannot be blamed on these folk it's the puppy farmers encouraged by DB with his 'designer' dogs, flooding the pet shops, selling at ridiculous prices, tempting people to breed on. It's not all that long ago that pet shops may have had the occasional pup in the window and the 'designer dog' wasn't being thrust down people's throats.

I think if anyone comes to DOL then they deserve the curtesy of having the pros and cons explained to them as we try to explain to others outside this forum, not just be told "desex", "desex". and made to feel guilty for not doing it immediately. The world isn't full of sex deranged males (dogs) who are going to rip down the fences, tear through doors to get at a bitch in season.

[Bindii]

It's true that many DOLers are more educated than the average dog owner, but the problem is that occasionally the 'average dog owner' may come across a few threads such as this and think 'omg i'm not desexing my bitch' and then the pet gets pyo and has an absoloute terrible recovery and huge chance of not surviving.... just an example.

I think people reading threads such as these need to remember that the people writing responses may not have any true knowledge on matters related and are only retelling things they have read on the internet.. and i don't think any one can deny that there is a lot of crap online. How can one decide what is 'crap' and what is 'fact'? If you are not a breeder and have no science/medical/veterinary degree or knowledge, don't say it like it's fact.

....i know this post wont make a huge difference to the amount of 'stuff' some people are saying like it's absoloute fact... just something i've noticed a bit here on the foums.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Bindii

[dunnwarren]

I'm not repeating something just because I read it on the net. I have been breeding for 32 years and in that time have only ever had one bitch speyed, the rest after they finished breeding lived their lives out with me or in pet homes, these were checked out thoroughly and it was left up to the new owner whether to spey them or not. But they were given the pros and cons of desexing, some did and some didnt, it was purely their choice.

[pebbles]

Bindii, that's just the sort of thing I object to ""omg I'm not desexing my bitch" and then the pet gets pyro" as if it's inevitable. I've been breeding, showing for 50+ years and never had a bitch with pyro and I've had a lot of bitches so law of averages I should have had at least one if it's that common.

I had dogs long before the internet made 'instant experts' so if your comment was aimed at me, I'll back my hands-on experience all the way.

[Bindii]

I said for example

I've only been working at a vet for less than six months and it has so far been the equal most common natural cause for sudden death (or near) i just don't know why any family with a bitch purely for pet purposes would risk that. (the other is bloat, which i don't believe is related to desexing, but the author of that linked article in the original post might find a link because everything else is due to desexing)

My comment was not aimed at anyone in particular, just a whole range of posts i've seen on here (not just this thread) and i actually said "If you are not a breeder and have no science/medical/veterinary degree or knowledge, don't say it like it's fact." I totally respect people with real, good experience such as long term breeding...

Of course it's not inevitable that a bitch will get pyo. i just know that if i had a bitch i'd get her done because i'd feel so unbelievably guilty if she got it. From what i have personally seen in my 6 months, the risk of having a reaction to anaesthetic is much lower than the chance of getting pyo, and that itself is enough to convince me, and to understand why most vets advocate desexing. (in fact i haven't seen a reaction to aneasthetic yet and have asked around the clinic and most haven't seen it - especially in a young dog when desexing is recommended)

[wildairbc]

So. Some think that "average Joe" is capable of handling an intact dog of either sex.

I do not.

My opinion is based on nearly forty years of being deeply involved with dogs in many different endeavors. (vet nurse, breeder, animal control officer, human society worker, groomer).

In my opinion, it is nearly inevitable that the "accident" will happen. That is not to mention the "accidents" that many who own intact males do not even know about since they let their dogs roam. Many people who don't care to spend the money on de-sexing, also don't care to spend the money on licensing, vaccines, training, or good diet.

But consider this-if all of the "cons" connected to de-sexing are true, why not advocate against gelding horses? Or bulls? I think we all know that the "average Joe" horse owner or the one growing out a calf for slaughter is NOT at all qualified to handle such potentialy dangerous animals. Believe it or not, fellow "dog" people, the "average Joe" is no more capable of handling an intact dog or bitch. How many times have we all said that "so and so shouldn't even own a dog"? Then certainly, they shouldn't be owning an intact dog..

I do not believe that the cons outweigh the pros by a long shot. If you think folks are dumping unruly dogs by the thousands now, can you imagine what it would be like if they were all intact?

It is fine to seek out all information, but if you put stock in ancedote, what about the MILLIONS of dogs that HAVE been neutered over the past thirty years or so (USA) that lived long, healthy lives? Because a few people die each year from taking, say, aspirin, do you think it should be removed from the market? How about peanuts? Shellfish?

I have seen dogs die of anesthetic for an ear crop, but I believe that many, if not most, folks on this forum, will argue in favor of letting us keep the "right" to crop our dogs if we please.

I don't believe it does dogs or society any good to try to make average pet owners feel guilty for having their dogs de-sexed. I don't believe that there is some great conspiracy amongst vets just to "make a buck". I do believe that there will always be those who question the status quo and that is a good thing! But their questions alone should not be construed as answers.

[persephone]

I believe that many, if not most, folks on this forum, will argue in favor of letting us keep the "right" to crop our dogs if we please.

Count me out!!

[pebbles]

Yeah count me out on the ear cropping too.

wildairbc - lets not confuse the issue, horses and bulls cannot be compared to dogs, although that being said, educated stallions are not a problem, just a bit bigger and I've been involved with the training of those too. All those 'unruly dogs being dumped by the thousand' - nothing to do with desexing - lack of training and responsible ownership the culprit there!

Bindii, going on personal experience again, over many years I've been closely involved with a lot of breeders of different breeds, some big kennels, some small, and I can say that I've only heard of one case of pyro (bitch lived a long life) so if what you say is happening now then there's something wrong.

I've never said 'DONT Desex' just want both sides put and people to make an INFORMED decision not be scared into it.

[dog geek]

I believe that many, if not most, folks on this forum, will argue in favor of letting us keep the "right" to crop our dogs if we please.

Count me out!!

No, I do not think that I want to have ear cropping even mentioned, let alone sanctioned.

[rose of tralee]

Re cropping...my stars, that was a call to arms...not. Methinks wildairbc has quite the wrong country.

Re pyo, I'd be interested in stats from countries (Sweden comes to mind) where I understand there is less speying. Also wonder if there is a correlation between lap dogism (restricted exercise) and increased incidence of pyo v. well exercised bitches.

Anecdotal: Miss Lola was speyed at age 8 last year, mainly for the convenience of the house sitters. Her reproductive tract was in excellent condition tho' the ovaries had been rather busy...dals do big litters, release lots of eggs, so I guess that was to be be expected. Miss forever now, as was always the intention.

[dunnwarren]

Ive owned both stallions and bulls during my life and never had a problem with either, it's a case of knowing the animal and what its temperament is like. Yes we desex a lot of our bulls but that is for sale purposes, steers sell for more then bulls, same with rams and stallions. Dont really think you can compere an entire dog to stallions and bulls.

Im not against desexing, it's great tool for those unable to manage an entire dog or bitch, but I do think people should be given ALL the facts not just told it's the best thing to do.

[wildairbc]

"

Dont really think you can compere an entire dog to stallions and bulls."

Why? Why can't you compare them?

If desexing is so harmful to dogs, why don't you believe it is harmful to horses? What is the difference?

Of COURSE training and management matters when it comes to intact animals of ANY kind! That is NOT what I was saying! I was saying that your AVERAGE Joe Public is NOT CAPABLE of managing intact animals. Some of them are barely able to manage an animal at all. And, if they cannot manage them, they should not have intact animals, therefore neutering is the better option for pet animals.

BTW, I am not "for" ear or tail cropping. That is why I do not own a breed that requires such to be shown. I do guarantee you that many folks in OZ do want the choice of whether or not to crop. Perhaps they are not on this partcular part of Dogzonline, but they are here.

The Big Picture remains-for the good of individuals and society, pet animals should be neutered. Period.

[dunnwarren]

I'm sorry but not sure if your last comment even deserves an answer wildairbc, surely you cannot honestly say that entire dogs, stallions and bulls should be treated the same. Size and trainability is one point where they differ, the stallions and bulls I owned could never be trained to sit and stay, I know you meant as far as desexing is concerned but the main reason they are desexed is because of size and trainability or lack there of and the fact that steers and geldings are worth more unless they have a strong pedigree behind them.

It's a bit general to say that the average joe can't handle an entire dog, there are more responsible dog owners then unresponsible ones, some have their animals neutered but a lot dont, that doesnt make them irresponsible in my book.

I am married to an American and when we went to look at the dobermanns at the dog show last weekend he commented on how much nicer they looked with their ears down,, softened the head he said. As far as ear cropping I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone here in Oz that approves of it, might be a handful and that's it, certainly not many as you suggested. I show a breed that used to have tails docked, that is no longer allowed here and we live with that decision, it certainly wasnt as traumatic as having ears cropped.

[Parkeyre]

the link didnt work fr me, that sucks. i'll reload it in IE =]

[wildairbc]

Hi Dunnwarren,

You are still not getting my point. I am asking that IF de-sexing is so detrimental to the HEALTH of the individual dog, then why isn't it the same for other animals, like horses and bulls(so, OK, steers are not meant to live long, healthy lives-bad example)? I am not talking about trainability-I am talking about health.

I am also talking about the GREATER GOOD of society as a whole that does not appreciate having to deal with so many unwanted dogs due to the carelessness and "accidents" of others.

I hope you are right that there are far more responsible dog owners in Oz than not. I can't say that this is true in the US. Of course, part of BEING a responsible dog owner here is having your dog de-sexed, so it is rather hard to determine.

If you would also carefully read my last post, I stated that I do NOT like "cropping" anything off of dogs myself, and that is why I do not have a breed that requires any sort of cropping for show. I have even given up taking off dewclaws, although I do get some disapproval on that from my peers here.

But that is not what this thread is about. What I meant was that I am sure that Aussies, as well as us Yanks, are not keen on having the government regulate the "dog hobby". I do not like cropping, but I defend the right of others to do so without some bureaucrat telling them they can't based on nothing but emotion and politics.

I'm sorry but not sure if your last comment even deserves an answer wildairbc, surely you cannot honestly say that entire dogs, stallions and bulls should be treated the same. Size and trainability is one point where they differ, the stallions and bulls I owned could never be trained to sit and stay, I know you meant as far as desexing is concerned but the main reason they are desexed is because of size and trainability or lack there of and the fact that steers and geldings are worth more unless they have a strong pedigree behind them.

It's a bit general to say that the average joe can't handle an entire dog, there are more responsible dog owners then unresponsible ones, some have their animals neutered but a lot dont, that doesnt make them irresponsible in my book.

I am married to an American and when we went to look at the dobermanns at the dog show last weekend he commented on how much nicer they looked with their ears down,, softened the head he said. As far as ear cropping I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone here in Oz that approves of it, might be a handful and that's it, certainly not many as you suggested. I show a breed that used to have tails docked, that is no longer allowed here and we live with that decision, it certainly wasnt as traumatic as having ears cropped.

[morgan]

Why do these threads always argue about 2 choices, desex or not desex?

Personally I advise my puppy buyers to never desex, I firmly believe that dogs need their hormones for a variety of reasons and the risk of spay incontinence for bitches is unacceptable.

There is a third option, one which makes litters and pyo impossible (well, you can still get stump pyo, but this can occur on desexed bitches as well) - surgical sterilisation.

Hysterectomies and vasectomies are available, preserve hormones and prevent puppies and pyo in bitches. Yes desexing is easier for the average public, but informed owners that can adequately train and care for their dogs should be given the choice of this option. Let's face it, the vets actually charge more for these ops, so you'd think they would be cheerfully offering it!

And as for livestock, females are never done, so comparing health risks is simply not possible. Steers are usually eaten fairly young so who would know if they had health issues? Geldings are generally much more active than dogs and are usually eating their natural food, unlike dogs. Big difference, simply no comparison.

[pebbles]

Just beat me to it Morgan! I was about to point out that females of other animals aren't desexed so not a valid argument.

I don't believe in the unneccessary desexing of dogs (not keen on gelding either but that's another story) and just think people should be given the facts and options to make an informed decision.

I think calm discussion of the issue is necessary as at times it reads as if there will be hordes of raging males descending on a bitch in season from miles around while the bitch is frantically bashing at the door to get out, sounds like a scary movie lol. Proper management and common sense make it all too easy really. The base rule should be have dogs and bitches securely confined on your property, be they entire or desexed and there's the biggest part solved.

[jacqui835]

Why do these threads always argue about 2 choices, desex or not desex?

Personally I advise my puppy buyers to never desex, I firmly believe that dogs need their hormones for a variety of reasons and the risk of spay incontinence for bitches is unacceptable.

There is a third option, one which makes litters and pyo impossible (well, you can still get stump pyo, but this can occur on desexed bitches as well) - surgical sterilisation.

Hysterectomies and vasectomies are available, preserve hormones and prevent puppies and pyo in bitches. Yes desexing is easier for the average public, but informed owners that can adequately train and care for their dogs should be given the choice of this option. Let's face it, the vets actually charge more for these ops, so you'd think they would be cheerfully offering it!

And as for livestock, females are never done, so comparing health risks is simply not possible. Steers are usually eaten fairly young so who would know if they had health issues? Geldings are generally much more active than dogs and are usually eating their natural food, unlike dogs. Big difference, simply no comparison.

Totally agree with what you said, particularly in regard to the differences between the steers and geldings vs a dog-I don't believe there is really any information to be gained by comparing them. I never had my last dog desexed, at first we were waiting for him to be a year old and then once he was well we didn't really have any trouble with him so we just left him untouched. After yelling at us about it for years, our vet finally changed his tune when we brought our dog to him at 15 years old. He was surprised to feel that our dog still had so much muscle and was still in such great shape, and he actually said to us that it was probably because we never desexed him. Now with my new dog I'll again be waiting until he's at least a year old, and then I'll decide what to do. I have a larger breed, and I can't stand the way larger dogs who were desexed young look, their legs are too long and they look puppy like in their faces. Honestly I think something needs to be done about who can have a dog, because if we're mainly putting our pets through surgery because people simply can't keep their dogs safe well I don't believe that should ever be an issue, and if it is, those people shouldn't have a dog. You guys claim that cropping a dog is cruel, but I personally think desexing them is a far worse procedure and if it's being done because we can't control them, then we shouldn't have them in the first place. After all, I think the people who claim that cropping has health benefits and hearing benefits for the dog have about as much ground to stand on as the people who say we should desex for health reasons-in both cases I think the procedures are mainly carried out because what's best for the people, not for the dogs.

[my2boys]

Why do these threads always argue about 2 choices, desex or not desex?

Personally I advise my puppy buyers to never desex, I firmly believe that dogs need their hormones for a variety of reasons and the risk of spay incontinence for bitches is unacceptable.

There is a third option, one which makes litters and pyo impossible (well, you can still get stump pyo, but this can occur on desexed bitches as well) - surgical sterilisation.

Hysterectomies and vasectomies are available, preserve hormones and prevent puppies and pyo in bitches. Yes desexing is easier for the average public, but informed owners that can adequately train and care for their dogs should be given the choice of this option. Let's face it, the vets actually charge more for these ops, so you'd think they would be cheerfully offering it!

And as for livestock, females are never done, so comparing health risks is simply not possible. Steers are usually eaten fairly young so who would know if they had health issues? Geldings are generally much more active than dogs and are usually eating their natural food, unlike dogs. Big difference, simply no comparison.

Having lost my best friend and companion to bone cancer in both rear legs 2 weeks after his 5th birthday I too believe that desexing needs to be thought about seriously before going ahead. Like you Morgan the breeder of my gloldie also agreed with me when we discussed desexing. I was worried when we brought the subject up as I had heard some breeders prefer that if you aren't going to breed or show they do prefer you to desex. No-one can say that desexing Max at an early age caused the cancer but then my vet couldnt say that it didn't either and when I told him that Josh wasn't going to be desexed I never got the "lecture" on responsible ownership.

As far as comparing livestock to pets and desexing it is like chalk and cheese.