Herding Ht

[cry123]

How did you guys teach your left and rights?

Do you mean thier sides? (as in circling left and right around the sheep?)

[JulesP]

As in driving. Everyone seems to have different terminology for this stuff.

[cry123]

As in driving. Everyone seems to have different terminology for this stuff.

Well we dont do herding but for interests sake we teach them to balance and recall first (as well as a stop), then we teach them thier sides, usually done in a round yard and similar and then from there we will teach then to cast, which is an extension of thier sides. Then we teach them to drive, once they have thier sides well established, you should be able to ask them to move left or right as little or as much as needed. Then it is just about refining the commands and teaching them to walk in and reverse, etc etc.

Edited May 10, 2010 by cry123

[Janba]

As in driving. Everyone seems to have different terminology for this stuff.

Are you talking about bringing the sheep along behind you or taking the sheep away from you?

As for training sides it is as cry123 says. You need to teach the dog to balance, side commands, stop etc in a round yard or small yard. Once the commands are well established it shouldn't matter where the dog is or how far you want them to move they should obey. Its no different to teaching a dog a sit command. Once it knows the command the dog should sit when you ask it no matter where it is.

The reverse is the command I am having trouble with. Cole is very resistant to it. There is nothing physically the matter with him he just hates walking backwards.

[TerraNik]

I can't wait to get my two back into training!! I'd love to compete with them... I hope we get there!

[JulesP]

Driving - sheep away from me. I've got 2 more started passes to get and then I am going to be buggered. Plus Poppy spent one of her started go rounds driving which caused a bit of a problem. If the sheep are super quiet and well behaved she stays in a fetch position. If they are a bit flighty she starts driving but drives them were ever at the moment! (usually into a fence were she is then happy!!!)

[cry123]

The reverse is the command I am having trouble with. Cole is very resistant to it. There is nothing physically the matter with him he just hates walking backwards.

We try to teach the reverse in a race if possible, we look to have a sheep in a headbale at the end of the race. We have the dog on a long rope, we will ask them to walk in, so they walk towards the sheep and then we ask them to back off (or whatever your reverse command is) and then with a garden rake well either tap it infront of them or push them gentle so that they step backwards. We keep them on the rope so that they are always looking forward, and cant turn away.

If you dont have a race we still do the same method, even with out sheep. Have them on the rope. Ask them to walk in then use the rake to push them backwards as you say the reverse command.

(Not sure if that made sense, it is easier to talk about it in person or demonstrate!! )

[Janba]

The reverse is the command I am having trouble with. Cole is very resistant to it. There is nothing physically the matter with him he just hates walking backwards.

We try to teach the reverse in a race if possible, we look to have a sheep in a headbale at the end of the race. We have the dog on a long rope, we will ask them to walk in, so they walk towards the sheep and then we ask them to back off (or whatever your reverse command is) and then with a garden rake well either tap it infront of them or push them gentle so that they step backwards. We keep them on the rope so that they are always looking forward, and cant turn away.

If you dont have a race we still do the same method, even with out sheep. Have them on the rope. Ask them to walk in then use the rake to push them backwards as you say the reverse command.

(Not sure if that made sense, it is easier to talk about it in person or demonstrate!! )

Thats basically what I have been doing and also trying in the hallway at home. He is frightened of the rake (not from my use of it but from another person training a dog near him) which doesn't help. I have 2 non herding dogs who back up beautifully and the one I need to do it doesn't.

[JulesP]

I taught Poppy to back for agility using a treat so perhaps you could try that? Treat under nose and move hand into the dog. Hand needs to be under chin so that dog backs with its head down.

[Janba]

Driving - sheep away from me. I've got 2 more started passes to get and then I am going to be buggered. Plus Poppy spent one of her started go rounds driving which caused a bit of a problem. If the sheep are super quiet and well behaved she stays in a fetch position. If they are a bit flighty she starts driving but drives them were ever at the moment! (usually into a fence were she is then happy!!!)

Sounds like she isn't confident in her ability to control the sheep if she is putting them onto the fence line to hold them. She needs to learn to back off lighter sheep. Sheep have a distance that they are comfortable with the dog being at. When the dog comes closer they will move, too close they will run. Imagine a circle round the sheep. When the dog is outside that circle the sheep stay relatively still, when the dog is on the line they move away quietly, when the dog comes inside the circle they move away fasyer and are harder to control. What you need to do is keep Poppy at the distance where the sheep will move quietly along but not too fast. This distance depends on the sheep and the strength of the dog so varies dog to dog and sheep to sheep.. This is easier said than done

[cry123]

[

Thats basically what I have been doing and also trying in the hallway at home. He is frightened of the rake (not from my use of it but from another person training a dog near him) which doesn't help. I have 2 non herding dogs who back up beautifully and the one I need to do it doesn't.

What about just using a stick?

[Janba]

[

Thats basically what I have been doing and also trying in the hallway at home. He is frightened of the rake (not from my use of it but from another person training a dog near him) which doesn't help. I have 2 non herding dogs who back up beautifully and the one I need to do it doesn't.

What about just using a stick?

A stick might work - I have been a bit slack and put it in the "too hard basket" lately but if I ever hope to 3 sheep trial him I will have to have a teach it. I haven't found in the driving that I have been doing for herding that it is a problem as I can arc him back.

[cry123]

[

Thats basically what I have been doing and also trying in the hallway at home. He is frightened of the rake (not from my use of it but from another person training a dog near him) which doesn't help. I have 2 non herding dogs who back up beautifully and the one I need to do it doesn't.

What about just using a stick?

A stick might work - I have been a bit slack and put it in the "too hard basket" lately but if I ever hope to 3 sheep trial him I will have to have a teach it. I haven't found in the driving that I have been doing for herding that it is a problem as I can arc him back.

We have used arcing them back to give ground in three sheep trials one a few of ours that dont reverse. With have an Open dog who hates the reverse. The only way she will get off her sheep is to arc off them, so you can still trial without the reverse. It makes easier though. I reember watching my husband work this dog, and he had delivered the sheep and was walking back up the ground towards the first winding peg. She was in front of the sheep and they where walking onto her, and he just kept asking her to arc and went up the ground that way.

[Janba]

A tiny little brag from training today - I got the split for the shed twice :D

I had Cole work them for a bit while they were in the equivalent of a shedding ring then when the opportunity arose got him to drive 2 or 3 sheep from the others. He is getting the hang of the command "these" and knowing they are the ones to concentrate on and working them away to get a split.

BUT he hasn't got the hang of walking up between the 2 groups to do the hold. When I give him the command to come to me I want him to come straight without putting pressure on either group of sheep but he wants to arc round and back to me which causes the sheep to join together again.

[JulesP]

Is this yard dog/3 sheep stuff Janba? Sounds like you had a good training session.

I went to my clinic today. Worked on some of Poppy's 'issues'. She had decided the sheep had to stay in the obstacles and was heading them off, not very handy! We seem to have fixed that with some stops. Also worked on her walking through the obstacles as she didn't like that. Amber as you know also had her first whiz around the sheep.

[Janba]

Is this yard dog/3 sheep stuff Janba? Sounds like you had a good training session.

I went to my clinic today. Worked on some of Poppy's 'issues'. She had decided the sheep had to stay in the obstacles and was heading them off, not very handy! We seem to have fixed that with some stops. Also worked on her walking through the obstacles as she didn't like that. Amber as you know also had her first whiz around the sheep.

The shed is for advanced B course - and the hardest thing I have found to train on sheep.

Poppy to me sounds like she lacks a bit of confidence in her abilty to control the sheep (not in her ability to work). Driving the sheep to the fence and holding them in an obstacle put her in a postition of control. It all comes down to how much experience the dog has.

Cole went through something similar where he seemed worried about loosing his sheep in then ope paddock. I fixed most of it by working on getting him to hold sheep in the middle of the paddock. I put him on a stop stay and just waited. When the sheep moved I let him block them and then put him on a stop stay again. Over a few weeks he gained confidence in his abilty to block and control then. I also worked him on a mob of about 50 getting him to hold them in position. It might seem like you are not making a lot of progress but the dog gains confidence. Stock handling for trials, maintenance work on the sheep etc for is also a great help in giving the dog confidence.

[SmoothieGirl]

Jules what did Amber think of the sheepies?

We didn't go to the clinic today because we had an obed club fun day (mock trial at your level). We won 2nd place and a pretty red ribbon though - damn those SFE's.

See you at Kate's in July I think.

[JulesP]

Not sure if Poppy lacks confidence Janba but she is a major control freak and prefers the sheep not moving. She also likes to head.

Haven't seen many B courses offered down here yet. The trial next month has B Course though.

Amber was really good at the beginning SmoothieGirl. She lost a bit of interest when the sheepies weren't moving and then got a bit worried about it all. After a break she was happy to go back and tell the sheepies off through the fence so that was good.

Hopefully there will be another clinic at the end of this month before the OES trial. Well done on your 2nd place

[Janba]

Confidence isn't really about the dogs working ability but on about experience. Its like learning to drive a car - the potential is there but the practice gives you the confidence to handle the car in different situations.

[piper]

Confidence isn't really about the dogs working ability but on about experience. Its like learning to drive a car - the potential is there but the practice gives you the confidence to handle the car in different situations.

Good explanation Janba.

Given what you say Jules, that Poppy is a control freak - she likes to hold them on fences and in obstacles as she knows she can control them and hold them there, she needs to learn that she can also do this elsewhere and develop confidence in her own ability to keep them under control in open spaces. At least that is my interpretation of what Janba was explaining