2 X 2 Weave Training Discussion

[Heidii]

I have been training my dog on 2 x 2 weaves for the last week and want to know if this method has been successfull for everyone that has used it?

I have watch the DVD a few times. Susan goes on to say that it is very important not to lure a dog through the weaves however contradicts herself when I find she does it herself in the DVD...very slighty but she does it. Another thing she says is not to give a release word as we want the dog to do it itsef however she ends up giving a release word when she starts adding the second poles. All my partner can say is "So is what she saying true or is this all bullsh*t???"

For some reason my dog will make the correct entry a number of times but eventually stuff it up....its like he really doesnt know what he is doing.

here is a vid after only 2 days of training -

That was back last week but since then have gone back to using just the 2 and working more on entries.

I also find it hard to get my dog to drive through them like some of the dogs I see. He will work for a toy (only for like 20 secs though) but it still isnt the same as say susans Enchore etc

anyone else been having problems?

Edited March 26, 2009 by Heidii

[laffi]

I have used 2x2 method with both of my dogs with great success.

Can you be more clear about your question?

I don't think SG is luring at any stage in the DVD. She is quick at rewarding the right decision which may look like luring.

I would work on the drive (food or toy) before starting weave training or any training for that matter.

I don't work/train my dog if my dog isn't 100% switched on. If it means my session is going to be 20 sec long (or short lol) so be it.

[Heidii]

I have used 2x2 method with both of my dogs with great success.

Can you be more clear about your question?

I'm just interested in peoples experience using the 2 x 2.....maybe it just might take longer with my dog.

I don't think SG is luring at any stage in the DVD. She is quick at rewarding the right decision which may look like luring.

There is a part in the trouble shooting where her body language is luring. The way she stands toward the pole, with on foot pointing in the direct she wants her dog to go and by moving on the spot toward the pole...to me thats slighly luring.

I would work on the drive (food or toy) before starting weave training or any training for that matter.

I have worked on his drive since he was 10 weeks old.....i have just never mastered it, i just dont think he is that type of dog....one that is physco about toys. He does like his food but not heaps. I am finding this 2 x 2 technique will only work well on dogs with high drive ? maybe im wrong?

[leopuppy04]

Hi Heidii – I don’t think she would have lured the dog. Luring the dog would be showing the dog the food before it goes into the weaves and pulling it through the weaves with the food. Creates a very slow process. SG might be using a very effective placement of reward which may look like luring . I haven’t seen the DVD yet so can’t comment on that.

Again – not sure about the release word, but I think SG uses a “readyyyy set GO” to get the dogs revved up to go into the poles. She doesn’t use the actual cue for the obstacle though until the dog is really consistent with it’s behaviour. Again – haven’t seen the DVD yet

More info on what you have been training and where you’re at? Sometimes the weaves can be really hard in terms of getting and nailing an entry from all angles (we’ve gone back to practicing this!) Maybe try having the poles wider, or if he’s popping out at the last two, making just the last two wider can also help.

As for the not driving through – that can come with 2 things – the first being confidence… if he’s still a little confused (sounds like he might be) then that will affect his drive. Secondly if he isn’t showing great interest in toys, then we need to build up the toy drive first, or do REALLY short sessions when he really wants the toy. Alternatively, have you thought of using food in a more ‘toy orientated sense’?! Have a think about what you can do by using food as a toy more – this will do two things – increase toy drive, increase drive in general and also get that faster response by making food that little bit more exciting.

[Aussienot]

One of the keys to 2X2 is that from the beginning shaping is used rather than luring. You get the dog to offer the behaviour of correct entries. When the dog offers the behaviour and is rewarded for it, the desired behaviour is made clear to the dog much more quickly than if the dog is lured into the correct entry.

It requires great patience in the first training session. You may have to click/treat for looking at the poles, then c/t for any movement towards the poles, then c/t for actually doing it. There may be 8 or 10 incremental steps from looking at the poles to the dog going into the poles.

Once the penny drops that entry into the poles is the desired behaviour, things move along much more quickly. You can start increasing the criteria for reward to moving quickly and finding the correct entry from a number of different angles.

Don't be in a hurry to add poles 3&4 (or 5&6). Get the foundation skills of finding the correct entry and strong drive to the poles really, really solid with just 2 poles before adding more.

I used this method with my current dog, and loved the results.

[Heidii]

Hi Heidii – I don’t think she would have lured the dog. Luring the dog would be showing the dog the food before it goes into the weaves and pulling it through the weaves with the food. Creates a very slow process. SG might be using a very effective placement of reward which may look like luring . I haven’t seen the DVD yet so can’t comment on that.

She doesnt lure with food, she lures with her body language. Maybe I can record on my phone that tiny snipet and post it...or is that illegal?

Again – not sure about the release word, but I think SG uses a “readyyyy set GO” to get the dogs revved up to go into the poles. She doesn’t use the actual cue for the obstacle though until the dog is really consistent with it’s behaviour. Again – haven’t seen the DVD yet

Isnt GO a release word? She even says in the video at the start that you can see the dog is waiting for a release word. She doest use it then but does futhur in the video. Maybe you can do it once the dog masters the free shaping?

More info on what you have been training and where you’re at?

Have done it with 4 poles like in the above video but now am back to just two poles and working on entries. I have been told at the agility club he needs more drive through the poles too but i dont think It will ever be as good as I am wanting it.

As for the not driving through – that can come with 2 things – the first being confidence… if he’s still a little confused (sounds like he might be) then that will affect his drive. Secondly if he isn’t showing great interest in toys, then we need to build up the toy drive first, or do REALLY short sessions when he really wants the toy. Alternatively, have you thought of using food in a more ‘toy orientated sense’?! Have a think about what you can do by using food as a toy more – this will do two things – increase toy drive, increase drive in general and also get that faster response by making food that little bit more exciting.

As for using toy and food together I have been getting a chicken wing, wrapping it in a tea towel thats got little holes and using that to get him to tug and drive to. He does it, but only for like 3 times, after that he is not interested anymore....I just dont think 3 times is enough espc. when I'm trying to assess wether his entrys from hard directions is being achieved every time.

[Heidii]

One of the keys to 2X2 is that from the beginning shaping is used rather than luring. You get the dog to offer the behaviour of correct entries. When the dog offers the behaviour and is rewarded for it, the desired behaviour is made clear to the dog much more quickly than if the dog is lured into the correct entry.

It requires great patience in the first training session. You may have to click/treat for looking at the poles, then c/t for any movement towards the poles, then c/t for actually doing it. There may be 8 or 10 incremental steps from looking at the poles to the dog going into the poles.

Once the penny drops that entry into the poles is the desired behaviour, things move along much more quickly. You can start increasing the criteria for reward to moving quickly and finding the correct entry from a number of different angles.

Don't be in a hurry to add poles 3&4 (or 5&6). Get the foundation skills of finding the correct entry and strong drive to the poles really, really solid with just 2 poles before adding more.

I used this method with my current dog, and loved the results.

Thanks Aussienot....as I said it may just take much longer for my dog to master

[ness]

I am about to start my youngster shortly but not sure she is a hugely good comparison as she has had maybe 1 or 2 2-3 minute sessions and she happily drives through the poles.

SG did emphasis making sure your dog was fired up to play by having a game etc prior to commencing a session.

ETA. SG mentioned not using a clicker on her blog when it was asked. Can't remember the reasoning but you can probably find it if you look.

Edited March 26, 2009 by ness

[Aussienot]

I think if the dog is used to shaping training and freely offering behaviours it is much easier than if you are starting with a dog that is new to shaping or have used to luring or compulsion methods previously.

My other dog has never freely offered a behaviour in her life . . . and while I probably could have converted her, at nine there is no behaviour that I am willing to be that patient for! I completely gave up shaping with her after the '101 things to do with a box' fiasco. (After one hour, the only behaviour she had offered was staring at me.)

[Kavik]

I'm not doing 2 x 2 with Kaos (I taught a 3 pole entry by shaping it) but just some ideas on weaves in general.

I found short training sessions to be best. I would get a few really good ones but if I went for too long he would make more mistakes. So I went to do 2 on each side only, different entries.

The hardest thing for me when shaping new behaviours is to not add a cue I am getting better at it.

I found the first few sessions where he was figuring out what I wanted him to do very frustrating, but once it clicked in his head progress was fast. I have started a 3 pole entry with Zoe now too just to see if we can do it (who is 9 years old and I never had decent weaves on her) and she took longer to get it but is now starting to understand what to do.

[leopuppy04]

ETA. SG mentioned not using a clicker on her blog when it was asked. Can't remember the reasoning but you can probably find it if you look.

I think it's coz we are usually too slow with the clicker and end up clicking the wrong behaviour

[The Spotted Devil]

I'm naughty - I don't follow the rules

I lured, quickly switched to the clicker and used a NRM - Ziggy caught on really quickly and went from doing 4 garden stakes at home (different angles etc) to 12 weaving poles in one training session. Not saying he is perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but he looks ahead to the weavers and has the "I get it! Give me a shot!" look about him I wonder if luring vs shaping depends on the dog's motivation i.e. I think Ziggy quickly found weavers to be self-rewarding so luring worked well but he had no interest in retrieving so I shaped that

[Kavik]

Must convince OH to take more videos - can show you Kaos's 12 weaves and Zoe's 3 pole weave entry

[JulesP]

In her book SG mentions not using a clicker because it makes the dog look at you and she wants the dog looking ahead or at an obstacle.

[PAX]

I'm on day three with one of my dogs and I love it. At first I was using a tug but was getting her too high so lights on no one home, I have dropped back to food and she seems to really understand going through the two poles. Today we started working the entries.

Training would be hard if you cannot follow the DASH principle.

[ness]

Interesting point you raised PAX - Kenzie has been high but I still seem to manage using a toy so I have persisted with that. Makes me want my poles back now so I can practice - oh well should get them again next week and there is no hurry .

[caffy]

I re trianed my young dog with the 2x2 and I thought it was brilliant. Unlike my older dog, he had no history of shaping and I found it difficult to progress as any boo boo he made was confusing for him. So I stopped training the 2x2 and went away and shaped some tricks…it built confidence in him to try things again until correct..i think this is a strong point in the 2x2 method. My young dog came back to the weaves and progressed very quickly through the method…he really thinks about his weaving.

One thing I noticed with your video is that your dog reflects your demeanour,…you seem quite passive and this method thrives on excitement and play and interaction with your dog…that’s just an observation and hope that doesn’t offend;-)

[Nicole...]

I am a big fan of the free shaping method of weaving. That is how we taught Lomani and we are frequently being asked how we taught her and if we can reteach other people's masters level dogs (and we are yet to trial)! I can't remember time frames exactly, but I think we probably spent 1-2 weeks working on just 2 poles, then added the 3rd for a week, then 4 then we added 2 at a time. It would have been a good couple of months before she was consistently doing 12 poles and from that point we worked on slowly increasing speed and distance from the poles. I look at other trainers having to lure their dogs, or hip them through and think how lucky I am that I can send her to weave and work from a distance looking at where we are heading next. I agree with what others have said that you have to make weaving exciting, don't work for it for too long in each session and break it up with games. Be patient, it is well worth it!

[J...]

I trained my dog with the 2x2 method as it was written up in the Shaping Success book. She was weaving within a few weeks, and I had several judges comment on her weaving ability & entries as a novice dog.

However she does occasionally pop a weaver on "different" poles - i.e very narrow or wide poles, or if there's a tunnel in front, and will occasionally miss a difficult weave entry. My fault given I didn't do enough proofing work, which I plan on working through now I have both the booklet and the DVD.

My next dog will definitely be learning via the same method. :rolleyes:

[Heidii]

One thing I noticed with your video is that your dog reflects your demeanour,…you seem quite passive and this method thrives on excitement and play and interaction with your dog…that’s just an observation and hope that doesn’t offend;-)

No its doesnt offend....its good to video yourself and then watch it. I have been training him everyday with alot more entusiasum.... and its helping with his speed slightly.....i guess all i can do is keep at it and see how we go.