Assessing Sporting Ability

[dogdude]

In some cases (like fighting dogs), you would never want its original traits to be promoted.

A watered down version is exactly what is desirable.

IMO however, you could channel and test their "gameness" through a sport like Schutz.

Schutzhund would be a much closer test of gameness for some of the larger bull breeds than weightpull, but unfortunately, Schutz rules only allow a few select breeds to compete.

[Alyosha]

WRT "whether the dog would chase" - many dogs will "chase". I believe the ability to successfully "hunt" is different. Not having a go here, by the way, I realise testing breeds for their original uses is not always realistically possible. My pov is that when we can't "properly" test a dogs ability, we're going to lose the essence of the breed and end up with a watered down version, like we see today.

I agree here - chasing and hunting are two very different things... Hunting involves a level of drive, concentration and focus that isn't measured in lure coursing. But don't forget that hunting is different again to coursing, which is lillegal. Hunting isn't, it just skirts around the law. But to formalise it seems impossible to do legally and ethically.

Training play a huge part as well - just about any dog needs human guidance to successfully undertake duties assigned to them by humans. Some more than others obviously, but a handlers ability is always going to have a dramatic effect on a dog's demonstrated abilities.

Foxhunting does happen in Australia - hounds followed by horses.... as far as I am aware it is real and not done after lures... Can anyone confirm this for me?

[Tonymc]

I see the old milk bucket is making a racket again!!!

No need for me to give credit to anybody.What I posted is common knowledge to anybody that knows anything at all about dogs.Very basic knowledge indeed.

Tony

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Foxhunting does happen in Australia - hounds followed by horses.... as far as I am aware it is real and not done after lures... Can anyone confirm this for me?

I don't know enough about it but if you see Effie at a show she could tell you. I recall seeing an article on a kind of hunting foxhound "show" in a National Dog magazine. Not sure if it was a year ago or longer. Sorry, not very helpful but maybe a few leads if no-one pops up here

[poodlefan]

Foxhunting does happen in Australia - hounds followed by horses.... as far as I am aware it is real and not done after lures... Can anyone confirm this for me?

I don't know enough about it but if you see Effie at a show she could tell you. I recall seeing an article on a kind of hunting foxhound "show" in a National Dog magazine. Not sure if it was a year ago or longer. Sorry, not very helpful but maybe a few leads if no-one pops up here

There were a few drag hunts (hounds follow laid scent, not live foxes) around some years ago. There used to be one near Canberra.

There might still be hunt clubs near Windsor in Sydney and Lilydale in Victoria. I think there was one in WA too that produced some top show dogs, Peelhunt Ruler being one very notable example.

Edited April 1, 2009 by poodlefan

[WoofnHoof]

I just had a peek at the Sydney Hunt club website and it looks like they still do chase foxes, although they don't say it in as many words, couldn't find any other clubs with websites so since none are advertising the fact that they chase drag lures I'd say it's foxes.

[Vickie]

I have friends who breed foxhounds & hunting horses. I believe they still do hunts. Noy sure if it's a secret/allowed or not?

[WoofnHoof]

I have friends who breed foxhounds & hunting horses. I believe they still do hunts. Noy sure if it's a secret/allowed or not?

Probably not a secret but not publicised either

[Jed]

I see the old milk bucket is making a racket again!!!

No need for me to give credit to anybody.What I posted is common knowledge to anybody that knows anything at all about dogs.Very basic knowledge indeed.

Tony

Obviously too advanced for you to write your own thoughts

It's called p l a g i a r i s m, by the way.

Milk buckets serve some useful purpose, oafs, none.

[WoofnHoof]

So no one wants to set up a breed performance pointscore?

[Alyosha]

Hunting isn't necessarily illegal here in Australia. Foxes, rabbits, hares, pigs and goats (also horses) that I'm aware of - are all hunted on private land legally. All that is needed is a landholder's permission to go in with firearms, bow and arrows, ferrets or dogs etc.

Feral deer in my local area are hunted - farmers sell the hunting rights for feral animals to keen individuals... Not something I necessarily do or don't think is a good thing, there are arguments for and against. I worry about pig hunting from a welfare point of view. But genuine pig hunters place a high monetary and emotional value on their dogs and go all out to minimise injury and ensure a fast kill.

Coursing is a very different thing, and is illegal. If you look up lure coursing with borzoi on Youtube you'll see links to real wolf coursing still being performed in Russia. It's not pretty. The wolves are captive, released on an open plain with little head start, and are still on a long line so no matter what they do they'll never escape.

This is vastly different to hunting, and I think we'd all agree that this is not a good indicator of a dog's performance.

I don't know if we'd ever find a true performance measurement system that everyone would agree upon, especially when some of out breeds (such as fighting breeds) come from origins that are not necessarily legally or morally accepted anymore.

[gareth]

I see the old milk bucket is making a racket again!!!

No need for me to give credit to anybody.What I posted is common knowledge to anybody that knows anything at all about dogs.Very basic knowledge indeed.

Tony

Milk bucket who is a milk bucket? So Tonymac, did you write that essay then?

[WoofnHoof]

Hunting isn't necessarily illegal here in Australia. Foxes, rabbits, hares, pigs and goats (also horses) that I'm aware of - are all hunted on private land legally. All that is needed is a landholder's permission to go in with firearms, bow and arrows, ferrets or dogs etc.

Feral deer in my local area are hunted - farmers sell the hunting rights for feral animals to keen individuals... Not something I necessarily do or don't think is a good thing, there are arguments for and against. I worry about pig hunting from a welfare point of view. But genuine pig hunters place a high monetary and emotional value on their dogs and go all out to minimise injury and ensure a fast kill.

Coursing is a very different thing, and is illegal. If you look up lure coursing with borzoi on Youtube you'll see links to real wolf coursing still being performed in Russia. It's not pretty. The wolves are captive, released on an open plain with little head start, and are still on a long line so no matter what they do they'll never escape.

This is vastly different to hunting, and I think we'd all agree that this is not a good indicator of a dog's performance.

I don't know if we'd ever find a true performance measurement system that everyone would agree upon, especially when some of out breeds (such as fighting breeds) come from origins that are not necessarily legally or morally accepted anymore.

You could argue that a working hunter class with 3 or 4 jumps is not a real indicator of whether a horse will follow the hounds effectively, but it's still a test of sorts and when added to conformation testing you can get a better idea of it's ability than just a conformation class alone. When they first started the working hunter class at Toowoomba royal the people with show hunters entered even though it really did look as though the horses had never seen a fence in their lives! After a couple of years the organisers had to add a note to the schedule asking that the horses had jumping experience prior to entering the class - this was because at least half the riders would fall at the first couple of jumps! It's nowhere near as much fun to watch now but at least the horses have looked a bit more capable the last few years and are not just pretty faces

[Jed]

So no one wants to set up a breed performance pointscore?

I don't. How do I assess boxers in competition?

I am very fussy about the standard. At one stage, years ago, my boxers were rather sharp in temperament. They did meet the standard, but they were, to my mind, a bit fast with their teeth, and it was becoming apparent that in a changing world, a more mellow dog was required.

But it still had to fill the standard.

This is what the standard requires

CHARACTERISTICS - The character of the Boxer is of the greatest importance and demands the most careful attention. He is renowned from olden times for his great love and faithfulness to his master and household, his alertness, and fearless courage as a defender and protector. The Boxer is docile but distrustful of strangers. He is bright and friendly in play but brave and determined when roused. His intelligence and willing tractability, his modesty, and cleanliness make him a highly desirable family dog and cheerful companion. He is the soul of honesty and loyalty. He is never false or treacherous even in his old age.

FAULTS - Viciousness; treachery; unreliability; lack of temperament; cowardice.

"defender and protector does describe a dog which will bite people who enter the property. However, I felt that what was required was a dog which would accept visitors, but have the discretion to tell who was friend, and who was foe. I had no trouble with treachery, faithfullness, or trustworthyness.

So I bred my bitches to line which was gentle - I lost some of the protective instincts, and the pups I culled went to families where they were greatly loved, but I doubt they would have fulfilled their function as a guard dog. I needed a couple more crosses to get back to what I wanted - without losing conformation or type.

I think I have it now. I crowed on here a while back about my teenage good girl, trained not to bark at people in the neighbouring paddock, and then, when the commands to cease stopped, going straight to guarding. She wags at anyone I welcome, but she gave absolute hell to men working on the fenceline where she was. She sat beside them and barked at them if they did anything too sudden, and there is no way she wuld have allowed them inside. If they had pushed her, she would have bitten them.

And while she was doing that, my other good girl, a big puppy, was inside, staying between me and the window and growling. This is the dog which licks every strange kid she sees when she is out, by the way. But she keeps her eye on me to ensure I am not being attacked.

My epitome of a good boxer is the one I used to take to shows. She'd skive off as soon as we arrived, to see all her "friends" (some of whom we didn't know), come back when called, and sit in the truck when we were away. NO ONE went into the truck - except our friends, they could borrow bridles, saddles, take horses out, or put them back, and she wagged at them because they were accepted. No one else was allowed to put their foot on the tailboard. She simply walked to the back of the truck, growling. Same dog was 100% trustworthy with friends, kids, little dogs, cats, birds etc.

And I still believe function follows form. My experience with horses proves it.

I bred a pony stallion. He was a successful led pony (what's successful, 2 royals for 1 x champion and 1 x reserve? champions at every aggie he went to?). He was a lovely pony, with good action, and very clever. I sold him at 7 to someone for a harness pony. He was not broken in. I told the dude he would be a top harness pony. He won the first ode he entered. He won show classes too, but he excelled at ode. He culminated the second year of new ownership with Australian runner up driven pony of the year competing in 3des against ponies up to 14 h. He was well trained, but he had the conformation for the job. He didn't need to be on the bit in the dressage, but he looked as if he was, so he won every single time.

And the dude who bought him had been competing for about 6 years, and the best he'd done was 4th - in anything.

I think people who want to do sports don't give enough credence to show breeders - a lot of them do have dogs which do have the attributes, (some don't, some have lost sight of what the dogs are supposed to do, but not all) but because working lines are available, they prefer them. I don't care about that, but I don't think "show dogs" are given a fair go. Some show dogs aren't much good, and some people can't choose the right pup, or train it, and then they blame the "show lines" for their failures. But if buyers knew what they wanted, and looked around, they would find what they wanted.

My cocker will fossick around a paddock, find a dead bird and bring it back to me. He has had no training, but his genes tell him that is what he should do, so he does it.

I have a friend with a few retired retrievers - all are champions, a couple are grand champions. They will ALL put in a good day's work in the field. They have never been trailled, but a couple of them would be successful...at any level.

And I wonder how good point scores are? I won champ at the royal years ago with the palomino, and he won high point horse of the year too, based on led and performance. He was well trained, and well ridden - he did well in C grade jumping, and dressage to Elementary, and he did a few western pleasures. He was immaculately turned out and presented. Was he the best horse that year? No. I wouldn't have used him over a mare, but he was a very good colour, absolutely no smut, but he wasn't the best horse. Because he was worked, and worked to conceal his faults and highlight his good features, he looked better than he was. And he was a long way down the list of stallions I would have been using!! He was used though, by people who were swayed by "high point" and didn't really know much about conformaton. Where are his progeny? No where. He never threw anything much.

And I can run him down because he didn't belong to someone else!! So I'm being objective, not nasty

So, I don't think high points are the answer either, quite frankly.

I bred, schooled and sold a u.12h pony, and he was the pony club ZONE highpoint horse. Because he generally won "best presented", his 9 year old rider was 1st or 2nd in rider class, and he was a fair sporting pony, could be relied on for a 2nd or 3rd in novelties, and a place always in the jumping, usually 1st, because he was from a line of natural jumpers. He was probably the best in the zone in the age group, over all, but there were some brilliant horses ridden by associates, which were better, but he beat them all.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Jed

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Coursing is a very different thing, and is illegal. If you look up lure coursing with borzoi on Youtube you'll see links to real wolf coursing still being performed in Russia. It's not pretty. The wolves are captive, released on an open plain with little head start, and are still on a long line so no matter what they do they'll never escape.

Do they retrieve the wolves at the end for another day or do the dogs kill them? Were long lines used when Borzoi were historically used in Russia - I'm assuming no? Having them on a long line seems incredibly unsporting.

Anyway it's is a good point now that just about everything is on YouTube - you need a critical eye. Just because it's from the country of origin doesn't make it worth emulating and/or historically accurate. There are also videos on YouTube from the middle east where the hounds are being used to tear apart cats. Even if it were a traditional occupation (and it isn't) it would not be something I'd be emulating.

Also agree that on private properties many people know if their dog can hunt or not, but they don't always talk about it unless they know they're talking to someone who gets it. Posting it here is different to chatting with friends.

[Alyosha]

You could argue that a working hunter class with 3 or 4 jumps is not a real indicator of whether a horse will follow the hounds effectively, but it's still a test of sorts and when added to conformation testing you can get a better idea of it's ability than just a conformation class alone. When they first started the working hunter class at Toowoomba royal the people with show hunters entered even though it really did look as though the horses had never seen a fence in their lives! After a couple of years the organisers had to add a note to the schedule asking that the horses had jumping experience prior to entering the class - this was because at least half the riders would fall at the first couple of jumps! It's nowhere near as much fun to watch now but at least the horses have looked a bit more capable the last few years and are not just pretty faces

I like this mental image - riders all decked out in their best gear, with the "What, we have to jump?!" faces on... ;)

Do they retrieve the wolves at the end for another day or do the dogs kill them? Were long lines used when Borzoi were historically used in Russia - I'm assuming no? Having them on a long line seems incredibly unsporting.

Anyway it's is a good point now that just about everything is on YouTube - you need a critical eye. Just because it's from the country of origin doesn't make it worth emulating and/or historically accurate. There are also videos on YouTube from the middle east where the hounds are being used to tear apart cats. Even if it were a traditional occupation (and it isn't) it would not be something I'd be emulating.

Also agree that on private properties many people know if their dog can hunt or not, but they don't always talk about it unless they know they're talking to someone who gets it. Posting it here is different to chatting with friends.

I'm thinking that, as borzoi used to hunt wolves with their handlers on horses - they would've been wild wolves and gone over longer distance so no, lines wouldn't have been used. Very unsporting and pointless indeed.

It's sad to think that people are willing to participate in this sort of thing and claim they are using the dogs for their original functions.

Performance testing in horses isn't always historically accurate, but can indeed give a better indicator of form + function than conformation judging alone. But then, horses don't really have many historical uses (apart from mounted bullfighting perhaps!) that could leave them open to abuse by people with their own agenda for cruelty or some other nasty sort of human trait...

.

[WoofnHoof]

So, I don't think high points are the answer either, quite frankly.

Possibly not the answer but what is? In boxers there may not be as many questions over their soundness as other breeds (the GSD is at the top of my mind ATM because of the other thread), and of course training will factor into any kind of performance testing and skew the results somewhat, like anything. I'm thinking in more general terms of creating a database of results so that if people were choosing a breed or line and wanted evidence of versatility or ability then they could find it. The pointscore concept is a motivator and an opportunity to promote lines as well as stave off questions of soundness.

I like this mental image - riders all decked out in their best gear, with the "What, we have to jump?!" faces on... ;)

Lol it was the looks on the horses faces that cracked me up the most - one year there was a jump made of hay bales, the horse couldn't believe he was being asked to jump his dinner so after dumping his rider he proceeded to tuck in!

Performance testing in horses isn't always historically accurate, but can indeed give a better indicator of form + function than conformation judging alone. But then, horses don't really have many historical uses (apart from mounted bullfighting perhaps!) that could leave them open to abuse by people with their own agenda for cruelty or some other nasty sort of human trait...

.

Unfortunately no species is safe from that. ;)

[Lablover]

I have a friend with a few retired retrievers - all are champions, a couple are grand champions. They will ALL put in a good day's work in the field.

In my opinion the days of hard fought, dual show/retrieving or triple champions (field) have passed.

Show and working/trial requirements and traits are too diverse. I find show bred labradors so short in leg, certainly not balanced.

What I found extremely interesting were the pictures of the Salukis. Their straight shoulders, so different compared to many other working breeds.

Off to train.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

What I found extremely interesting were the pictures of the Salukis. Their straight shoulders, so different compared to many other working breeds.

The other thing that may be peculiar just to Salukis is that it is OK for the front feet to "turn out a small angle" - some say it's even desirable. Normally this would be considered being east west and therefore a fault. I think I've been dumped for that reason before but have never asked about it.

[Quickasyoucan]

Interesting thread folks, despite the barbs.

In Ray Coppingers Dogs book (not all of which I agreed with) there was an interesting chapter about what he called, I think, "functional conformation". He specifically referred to herding dogs and that they had to not just look like for example a border collie but also show the correction functional conformation for example eye-stalk.

It is a difficult argument though, there are breeds of dogs that we love and would hate to see become extinct, but the world as we have it now does not allow them to fulfill their genetic heritage. For example the borzois and the afghans as mentioned above.

On the other side of the coin and referring specifically to the GSD and the herding dogs, BC and kelpie discussed above, I don't think believe you should have the sock without the shoe, by that I mean, a kelpie without drive or the ability to work isn't truly a kelpie for me, a GSD who is not capable of working and by this I mean undertaking active athletic work be it protection, security or police work surely can't been seen as a true fulfilment of their breed??

I didn't get the impression btw that purebred dogs were being denigrated BTW more the growing divide between purebred working and show lines was of concern.