Assessing Sporting Ability

[Kavik]

I think demand depends on breed/job/area. Breeds like Kelpies and Border Collies are still used in their original work, so the demand is there for a good working dog. This can be seen in the high prices that come from the Casterton Kelpie auctions. German Shepherds, Belgian Malinois etc are in demand for police, security, military, sports, scent work etc so the demand is also there for a good working dog. High price tags also come with some of these dogs.

Not sure about the other breeds, these are the ones I see and have experience with.

[Jed]

Vickie

What a ridiculous statement. Not only is it inappropriately emotive, it is simply not factual.

Course it is factual. Obviously not in your circles

to say that every dog who dies on a farm does so because it did not have any ability is just not true.

I didn't say it was. Dogs die on farms for all sorts of reasons, but pups/young dogs die because, despite being bred from good workers, from good lines of good workers, they don't have enough ability.

I don't know what "inappropriately emotive" is - would you prefer "shot", "dead", "killed" ?

It is practised everywhere dogs are seriously worked. What are people to do with the ones who wont work? There is a limit to the number of pets which townspeople will take, and most are unsuitable as pets, and your friendly neighbourhood pet shop is not an option.

I am refuting the erroneous suggestion that all dogs bred from working lines will work, as opposed to those bred from show lines. I am neither codoning or approving of the culling of working dogs, but it is a fact. People tend to forget that when touting "working" dogs.

Sure, I cull some of mine. I sell them as pets to be desexed - because I have that option, and if I didn't have that option, I wouldn't breed at all. As PF says, on properties, that is not an option.

A working dog is a tool, and although it may be loved and well cared for, it has a high value, and if it cannot work, it is worse than a nuisance.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Jed

[Kavik]

The WKC has a guarantee on their registered pups that they will replace or refund the cost of a pup if it does not work by 12 months or has a physical problem which prevents it working as long as the dog was given opportunity and training and exposure to livestock. So they must be pretty confident in their dogs ability.

[Tonymc]

Jules, demand for working dogs is very very high.

A good working dog can fetch up to 6 or 7 thousand.

Vickie, I agree with you about the following statement being ridculous.

And paddocks of properties where REAL working dogs are, are littered with the corpses of working line dogs which DIDN'T work.

If you choose show dogs as breeders with working ability, whilst keeping to the standard, you would get a higher proportion of working dogs, but most show breeders tend not to do that.

And there lies the problem!!! Tony

[Greytmate]

I am saying you CANNOT disregard the standard like some peice of unworthy trash you use it as a tool otherwise you are breeding working mongrels.

The problem with that statement is that there are hundreds of greyhound breeders in Australia, most of which would not be aware that a standard even exists, and yet the dogs that they are producing look exactly like the dogs being produced over a hundred years ago, and act exactly like the dogs being produced over a hundred years ago.

It seems that ignoring a 'standard' can sometimes preserve a breed better than following it can. Following breed standards is what has led to some of the more grotesque exaggerations we commonly see in some breeds.

The idea that a one page document can describe the entire physiology of a dog is a bit ludicrous. All it can ever do is to provide a very basic outline of the dog's outward appearance. Instead of exact proportions being described in the standard, often they are very subjective descriptions, like 'wide', 'deep' or 'short'. In some breeds, each generation seems to get deeper or wider or shorter, with no regard to the original proportions that the standard was attempting to describe. There is no way that some breeds would be capable of performing the job they were originally bred for, because the way that standard has been written has allowed for too much individual interpretation, and the breed has slowly evolved into something else.

[jesomil]

Don't rubbish something you don't understand.

[Crisovar]

I am saying you CANNOT disregard the standard like some peice of unworthy trash you use it as a tool otherwise you are breeding working mongrels.

The problem with that statement is that there are hundreds of greyhound breeders in Australia, most of which would not be aware that a standard even exists, and yet the dogs that they are producing look exactly like the dogs being produced over a hundred years ago, and act exactly like the dogs being produced over a hundred years ago.

It seems that ignoring a 'standard' can sometimes preserve a breed better than following it can. Following breed standards is what has led to some of the more grotesque exaggerations we commonly see in some breeds.

The idea that a one page document can describe the entire physiology of a dog is a bit ludicrous. All it can ever do is to provide a very basic outline of the dog's outward appearance. Instead of exact proportions being described in the standard, often they are very subjective descriptions, like 'wide', 'deep' or 'short'. In some breeds, each generation seems to get deeper or wider or shorter, with no regard to the original proportions that the standard was attempting to describe. There is no way that some breeds would be capable of performing the job they were originally bred for, because the way that standard has been written has allowed for too much individual interpretation, and the breed has slowly evolved into something else.

I am glad that you find the works of so many people who developed breeds ludicrous, it says lots.

It is obvious that you have no idea that extensions on the standards, discussion papers you could call them are also available that further explain the points of importance. Breed devotees have many avenues available to them to learn about and understand their breeds, the standard being one, and an important one.

To know a breed fully you have to understand many things, some are not written, you have to see them, watch animals at work and put your hands on them but the Breed standard is still a very valuable and important tool.

Some breed standards may appear simplistic, but the extensions provide more depth.

Have a read of the Boxer standard, it is one of the most complex you will see and one of the hardest to fully understand even with a discussion paper in hand.

Of course there is going to be variation in every breed, dogs are animals they not computer designed units that spew forth all the same, they are complex genetically and everyone sees them through different eyes and their methods and results will be many and varied. Some results will be bad, just as some trainers will never be successful and some lines will have no speed or no stamina.

How many Greyhounds die because they are not good enough for the job, some trainers will never grasp that the reason for dogs winning is the way they are built as well as their desire to run.

Yes, the Grey does still look the way it once did, and its success is performance based but it is very wasteful.

The failures end up buried in great numbers.

No use running on a pup that has the heart but not the body, how many useless litters are born because a trainer uses a winning sire over a poor bitch and the resultant pups throw to her. Do they look at why the sire wins and try to keep progeny that is built the same as well as having the same attitude.

Many don't because they can't, because they don't have the knowledge. Maybe they should try reading the standard for a better understanding of why a good Grey can run the way it can.

Yes, the same thing can happen in any breed when breeders have little knowledge and do not understand how to improve their chances of producing the goods. No method is fool proof, but you can lessen the chances of failure.

[Crisovar]

Jules, demand for working dogs is very very high.

A good working dog can fetch up to 6 or 7 thousand.

Vickie, I agree with you about the following statement being ridculous.

And paddocks of properties where REAL working dogs are, are littered with the corpses of working line dogs which DIDN'T work.

If you choose show dogs as breeders with working ability, whilst keeping to the standard, you would get a higher proportion of working dogs, but most show breeders tend not to do that.

And there lies the problem!!! Tony

I believe Jed was talking about rural working dogs. Why is it ridiculous?

If they don't work, they shoot them. They do not all make the grade even if they are generation after generation of workers. The show scene is not on it's pat malone there.

[Jed]

Well, you obviously have no knowledge of working dogs on real properties either, Tony. 120 acres and a couple of full mouth wethers is not a real property, by the way.

What do you think happens to working dogs which don't work?

[JulesP]

Is there more demand for working dogs though then there is supply?? Would a farmer want to go and buy a working dog from a show breeder when they probably have their working dog contacts.

[Just Midol]

I love how anyone who doesn't agree with a standard is ignorant and doesn't understand it. It's as though people think it is impossible to have an informed opinion against them. Arrogant much?

On the BBC world service today they had a discussion on scent detection dogs. 85% of pups born in a litter can work to a high standard.

[Crisovar]

I love how anyone who doesn't agree with a standard is ignorant and doesn't understand it. It's as though people think it is impossible to have an informed opinion against them. Arrogant much?

On the BBC world service today they had a discussion on scent detection dogs. 85% of pups born in a litter can work to a high standard.

Being the lord of arrogance young man you would know.

[Just Midol]

I also love it when the showies come in here bitching to the working guys, but then have a whinge when any working person dares to question breed standards or show breeders.

Laughs for all!

[Tonymc]

There truly are some fools on this site!!!!

A fool who do's not know me or my Family suddenly has me living on a hobby farm of 120 acres!!!A 120 acres is not even a Horse paddock.

Pretty hard to find a paddock that small where we are!!!

If one can only contribute foolish,ignorant,blatant mistruths to a topic then stay out of the thread.

That is an insult to my Family and my heritage,so run along and play silly games elsewhere.

Back to the topic.Anybody with any rationality,intellect and awareness knows that generalisations just do not work.Not all people in a group act and behave in the same manner.

Are all Dogs shot that do not make it in the bush?No of course not!!!!Many have gone to pet Homes.

Jules, yes Famers have much better options to buy a good dog then show breeders.The options they have are much better because they can see the dog actually working and know that this dog has generations of genuine working dogs behind him.Nobody wants to buy a dud or enter a lucky dip.

Midol, I have to agree with you it is indeed a joke!!!!! Tony

[Crisovar]

There truly are some fools on this site!!!!

A fool who do's not know me or my Family suddenly has me living on a hobby farm of 120 acres!!!A 120 acres is not even a Horse paddock.

Pretty hard to find a paddock that small where we are!!!

If one can only contribute foolish,ignorant,blatant mistruths to a topic then stay out of the thread.

That is an insult to my Family and my heritage,so run along and play silly games elsewhere.

Back to the topic.Anybody with any rationality,intellect and awareness knows that generalisations just do not work.Not all people in a group act and behave in the same manner.

Are all Dogs shot that do not make it in the bush?No of course not!!!!Many have gone to pet Homes.

Jules, yes Famers have much better options to buy a good dog then show breeders.The options they have are much better because they can see the dog actually working and know that this dog has generations of genuine working dogs behind him.Nobody wants to buy a dud or enter a lucky dip.

Midol, I have to agree with you it is indeed a joke!!!!! Tony

The Joke is people who continually, topic after topic come onto a Purebreed forum and each and every time insult and denigrate the Breeds the Breeders, and what they do.

If you find it all so distasteful and foolish then why bother to come here.

It is OK to insult anyone that disagrees with you? It certainly seems that way.

[jesomil]

Working dogs are just as purebred as their show bred cousins.

I do not see where anyone is denigrating show bred dogs. They have their place, its just that working dogs have their place also.

I would be very disappointed if I bred a working litter and only a few worked. I would say that nearly all working bred pups I have come into contact with will work. Some will work better than others and that depends on genetics, environment and handling. It is not pot luck.

I am sorry that some here have only come into contact with dogs that have been bred with unknown heritage so they end up with average pot luck puppies. Just because a dog is bred on a farm does not straight away mean it is a working bred dog.

WKC registered pups are sold with a guarantee that they will work, and that is when they are sold at 8 weeks. They have carefully selected genetics with strengths and weaknesses. If only a few of the litter would work then they couldnt possibly have those guarantees.

Unfortunately some people are close minded on the topic and until they can see things with their own eyes they will continue to base their knowledge on what friends of friends have said or do.

[Tonymc]

Jesomil, great post!!!!!Yes those that do not know will make silly misinformed statements. Tony

[JulesP]

I like information. I like learning. I like knowledge. I don't care if people have different views from me, as I am secure enough in myself that I just find it interesting.

There is no need for 'sides' to be taken in this discussion.

[Jed]

I also love it when the showies come in here bitching to the working guys, but then have a whinge when any working person dares to question breed standards or show breeders.

Laughs for all!

Seems to me that it is ok, in your eyes, for you to butt into every thread on anything at all in any forum, and strew about your opinions - based on ???? experience and knowledge - so I'm pleased you love it when showies come in bitching to the working guys.

Well done.

Presumably, you are classing yourself as "working guys". Just what exactly is the criteria you have used to describe yourself as that?

And if you need credentials to post in different forums - which by the way, I've never actually seen in any of the rules, how many dogs have you bred/shown/trained/worked? Hmm?

On that criteria, I have far more right to post in this forum than you do, having taken 3 separate dogs of separate breeds to CD, CDX and UD. I haven't done more because I don't have the commitment or the time.

And owned, trained, and worked a dog on properties. Just one, so I don't think that makes me at all knowledgable about "working" dogs, so I rarely comment, but I am over people with smuck all knowledge arguing for pages about what rot standards are, and how crap purebred dogs are.

And I've owned and worked ONE herding dog - on properties - not in trials. And I've lived on more properties and seen more real working dogs than you will ever see - working in paddocks, working in yards, backing sheep, loading goats, working cattle.

And I'm not an expert by any means, but I am sick of people who rubbish purebred dogs, and standards they have never read, and are not interested in reading, and would not understand if they did read them, so generally know smuck all about it, simply because they think it is smart.

tonymc

There truly are some fools on this site!!!!

A fool who do's not know me or my Family suddenly has me living on a hobby farm of 120 acres!!!A 120 acres is not even a Horse paddock.

Pretty hard to find a paddock that small where we are!!!

If one can only contribute foolish,ignorant,blatant mistruths to a topic then stay out of the thread.

That is an insult to my Family and my heritage,so run along and play silly games elsewhere.

I have no idea where you live, nor do I care. You have never shared that information, so for all I know, you might live in a soft drink can under the Harbour Bridge, and if you are going to have a hissy fit because you think I was talking about you, you can re think the situation. Everthing on here is not about you. Why on earth would you think I would bother referring to you when I have no idea about you, or where you live? I don't think you've ever posted anything about your dogs. For all anyone knows, you don't even have dogs. Not that I care.

The same comments re registered dogs I made to the other poster in this thread also apply to you. You demonstrably have no idea about purebred registered dogs, yet you come to a purebred forum and bag standards and registered dogs at every possible opportunity, except when you are plagiarizing well known trainers! Or published psychology findings.

And you might take your own advice about running, and cease making nasty, uninformed comments about purebred registered dogs. We're all over it. Come back when you have owned a few, bred a few, and have some informed comments to make.

The fact that you refute the statements about working dogs makes me wonder, when paddy's pigs know what happens.

And if you are referring to me as a fool, it takes one to know one.

And, yes, there truly are some fools on this site.

You shall know them by their writings.

Jesomil

Working dogs are just as purebred as their show bred cousins.

I do not see where anyone is denigrating show bred dogs. They have their place, its just that working dogs have their place also.

People are denigrating the STANDARDS, of which they have nil understanding. Working dogs do have their place, an important place. So do purebred dogs, and those places are different places.

JulesP

Is there more demand for working dogs though then there is supply?? Would a farmer want to go and buy a working dog from a show breeder when they probably have their working dog contacts.

Few farmers would buy from a show kennel. I know a few who occasionally do, to introduce a bit more type or bone or whatever they think they might need. They do it carefully, and after consideration. Some show breeders do breed dogs which will work, and those lines are the ones chosen by people I know. Some farmers have their own lines, maybe 10 or 20 generations of "home bred workers", and they will introduce an outside dog when they think it is necessary. They will also buy trial dogs, or offspring of trial dogs for new blood. Everyone does it differently. The demand for top dogs outstrips supply, particularly good started dogs.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Jed

[Just Midol]

It is OK to insult anyone that disagrees with you? It certainly seems that way.

If I were to make a judgment on your posts and your posts alone, it would appear that the answer is yes.

Jed, can you post more often please? It makes my day, a daily pick me up! I imagine most people feel the same way, so keep posting. We love it.

---

Tony, I don't think you quite understand Jed and Crisovar. Anyone who prefers working line dogs is instantly a standard hater and hates purebred dogs. It's just how show breeders view the dog world. I guess they don't like the fact that people actually produce working line dogs.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Just Midol