Amstaff Without Papers

[Red Fox]

Last night I found out that my brother has purchased an Amstaff puppy from a BYB with no papers

I'm not happy about it but he has had the dog for 3 weeks now so it's a bit late for lectures.

What I would like to know is that if the dog has no pedigree papers to support it's breed can the council declare it as a restricted breed (pittie) and is there anything he can do to minimise the chances of this happening??

I have suggested that he get the puppy desexed and microchipped as an Amstff ASAP and register it with the local council. He is under the impression that the dog has appropriate identification as the vaccination certificate says 'staffy' on it :rolleyes:

I have heard way too many horror stories of dogs being seized by the council and declared as restricted breeds when they are clearly not.

He is in SA and his local council declares the APBT as a 'prescribed dangerous dog breed' under the dog and cat management act, 1995, and states:

"A prescibed breed may not be registered unless it is desexed and has veterinary papers to prove the same. It must be kept on a property that is fully fenced with a high fence and, if the dog is outside the property at any time, it must be under effective control of a responsible person, be muzzled and on a leash of not more than 2 metres of length."

There is no mention of Amstaffs, but obviously council have the final say on what they consider to be a ABPT or fall into that catergory.

Any advice that I could pass on would be much appreciated.

Thank you

[Nekhbet]

err the staffy part is what worries me. Are the parents actually amstaffs or SBTs or pitbulls?

(2) A council may, on its own initiative or on application, make a Control (Dangerous

Dog) Order, a Control (Menacing Dog) Order or a Control (Nuisance Dog) Order in

relation to a dog if satisfied that—

(a) the dog is dangerous, menacing or a nuisance; and

(b) the dog has attacked, harassed or chased a person or an animal or bird owned

by or in the charge of a person in circumstances that would constitute an

offence against this Act.

52—Procedure for making and revoking orders

(1) Before making an order under this Division in relation to a dog, the council must take

reasonable steps—

(a) to ascertain all persons who own or are responsible for the control of the dog;

and

(b) to give each of the persons so ascertained at least 7 days written notice—

(i) identifying the dog in relation to which it is proposed that the order

be made; and

(ii) setting out the terms of the proposed order; and

(iii) inviting the owner or other person to make submissions to the

council (within 7 days or such longer period as is allowed by the

council) with respect to the matter.

(2) An order—

(a) must be made in the manner and form required by the Board; and

(b) must be noted in the register kept by the council under this Act; and

© takes effect when the council first gives a copy of the order to a person who

owns or is responsible for the control of the dog.

(3) The council must take reasonable steps to give a copy of the order to each person who

owns or is responsible for the control of the dog.

(4) An order may be revoked by a council by written notice to a person who owns or is

responsible for the control of the dog.

(5) A note of the revocation must be entered in the register kept by the council under this

Act.

I also found from City of Salisbury

If a person has been found to falsify records in order to register an un-desexed prescribed breed of dog, significant penalty of up to $2,500 can be applied.

so if you dont have proof your dog is what you say it is technically they can fine you??

http://www.wtcc.sa.gov.au/webdata/resource..._dogsbreeds.pdf

this one from City of West Torrens will fine you $1000 for the same thing :rolleyes:

I think he needs to speak to the EDBA about it because the word 'staffy' will cause him grief

[Red Fox]

Nekhbet-

Yep, it worries me too.

...AND Salisbury is his council.

I have just finished printing off all the info I can find from their site and am posting it off to him this-afternoon.

According to my brother the parents are Amstaff's and both come from 'one of the top SA breeders' Unfortunately he fails to realise that 'comes from' is not the same as 'owned by'... I would presume that both parents (who are owned by a mate of his) have papers, however the pups do not.

I would think that it would be hard to prove parentage if requested by the council

[WreckitWhippet]

He could go to the effort of contacting the breeders of the parents, assuming they have papers and ask if the parents are DNA profiled.

If they are and the breeders/owners of the parents are willing to share the details of their registered names and chip, your brother could swab his dog and have proof via DNA as to the breed.

If the parents have not been DNA profiled and are not chipped, he would be up for quite a bit of money to go through the process, providing the owners/breeders of the parents are willing to co-operate and assist him.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

First off hopefully his got a good council down there. I wouldnt know the first thing about sa but up here it goes by councils, some are great and others are relatively strict so hopefully your brother lives in one of the former.

I have heard way too many horror stories of dogs being seized by the council and declared as restricted breeds when they are clearly not.

An Amstaff is a pitty so if he has no papers its impossible to prove its not an APBT.

What he needs to do is handle the dog responsibly, make sure it never escapes which ensures it cant harass anyone or attack anything, keep him on the leash, teach him to heal and other basic obedience. If his a good dog thats well looked you should be all but in the clear.

[WreckitWhippet]

First off hopefully his got a good council down there. I wouldnt know the first thing about sa but up here it goes by councils, some are great and others are relatively strict so hopefully your brother lives in one of the former.

I have heard way too many horror stories of dogs being seized by the council and declared as restricted breeds when they are clearly not.

An Amstaff is a pitty so if he has no papers its impossible to prove its not an APBT.

What he needs to do is handle the dog responsibly, make sure it never escapes which ensures it cant harass anyone or attack anything, keep him on the leash, teach him to heal and other basic obedience. If his a good dog thats well looked you should be all but in the clear.

Incorrect.

If the dogs parents are registered American Staffordshire Terriers, they can prove the breed via DNA. It would however involve to owners of the parents and maybe even the grand parents being willing to co-operate with the puppy buyer.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Quite right I was going to correct myself when I saw you say that.

You can prove parentage to ANKC registered Amstaffs but dna on its own is no good.

[Red Fox]

Personally I dont think he will go to all the hassle of DNA testing unless the dog was at risk of being PTS. Even then I doubt his 'mate' the BYB would be willing to hand out info on the dogs parents... actually, I doubt he has much idea about anything beyond what is printed on those dogs pedigrees and I can bet they only have limited registration papers too. (And I would wonder whether this guy signed a contract with the dogs breeder saying that the dogs would be purchased as pets only and not bred??)

I hope he will look after it well, but unfortunately my brother doesn't know a hell of a lot about dogs and seems to be a magnet for trouble I've just put together a whole heap of info for him on training, diet, council regulations plus a whole lot on the history of the breed and off to the post office now. Says he will take to puppy class too so that may be of some help.

I know there are a lot of Amstaff owners out there that have never had any probs and it's a shame that there is so much prejeduce and ignorance when it comes to the breed. I would hate to think what could happen to this dog if the council got hold of it :D

[Kowai]

I've had my unpapered Staffy for almost 8 years now and I've never encountered problems with council.. I don't know if I'm just lucky or what..

I guess when you own these dogs you just have to, HAVE TO, make sure that they're trained and socialised.. Zach isn't perfect, but he's an incredibly friendly dog and I've never had a complaint about him. If your dog doesn't cause trouble, you'll usually avoid it.

While I call Zach a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, as thats what he was sold to me as from Pets Paradise (I know ), he is actually quite taller than a Staffy though not as tall as an Amstaff. He has the looks of an Amstaff I would say but just not the height.

Most people ask me what he's crossed with.. As far as I know both his parents were Staffies but most likely unpapered themselves so who knows where the cross comes in or what it is! When I bought him I was young and had no idea about BSL or puppy farms.

[neatz]

Sorry to hijak the thread but can I get something clarified please? I am assuming people reading this know a thing or two about pitties / am staffs.

Are there seperate lines that can be DNA profiled to prove Am Staff as opposed to APBT? I have tried to get info on this breed (not because I want to buy one just out of interest) and from what I have read from an American breeder is that years ago the AKC had the two breeds listed and you were able to get dual registrations ( and single registrations) until some canine body (can't remember which one) kicked up a fuss and now you can only find them as American Staffordshire BT's. This breeder also stated that they were two seperate breeds but people have been mixing the two to produce what we now know as AmStaff.

Are they two seperate breeds still and can they be DNA profiled to prove that?

[MolassesLass]

The DNA test wouldn't be testing breed but parentage. If you have two ANKC papered AmStaffs as the parents of your unpapered dog and a DNA test proves those are the parents, then that dog is an AmStaff according to council law.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Amstaffs are a strain of APBT of which there are many. Sometimes people talk about Amstaffs and APBT's bieng "crossed" which can lead to confusion.

They call these hybrids (popular in America). Some people just like to call them that but they are purebreed APBT's. In the context of this thread for an Amstaff to be safe it must be an ANKC registered.

Edited April 3, 2009 by calsonic350z

[olestony]

DNA testing can not pin point a breed even when purebred dogs are tested.

See video

Paternal DNA is the only thing to say who is the Sire and who is the Dam of the dog, and refrence it with microchips.

Edited April 4, 2009 by olestony

[Fevah]

First off hopefully his got a good council down there. I wouldnt know the first thing about sa but up here it goes by councils, some are great and others are relatively strict so hopefully your brother lives in one of the former.

I have heard way too many horror stories of dogs being seized by the council and declared as restricted breeds when they are clearly not.

An Amstaff is a pitty so if he has no papers its impossible to prove its not an APBT.

What he needs to do is handle the dog responsibly, make sure it never escapes which ensures it cant harass anyone or attack anything, keep him on the leash, teach him to heal and other basic obedience. If his a good dog thats well looked you should be all but in the clear.

Sorry, not adding anything of interest or help but Salisbury a good council? You've got to be joking

Here's hoping no one will report him.

[Red Fox]

Sorry, not adding anything of interest or help but Salisbury a good council? You've got to be joking

Here's hoping no one will report him.

Ummm yes... Salisbury is a lovely place [cough]

Get to meet the puppy tomorrow so I'll have a day to show my brother how to crate train and teach bite inhabition. Wish me luck...

Edited April 13, 2009 by SecretKei

[steve11]

Sorry to hijak the thread but can I get something clarified please? I am assuming people reading this know a thing or two about pitties / am staffs.

Are there seperate lines that can be DNA profiled to prove Am Staff as opposed to APBT? I have tried to get info on this breed (not because I want to buy one just out of interest) and from what I have read from an American breeder is that years ago the AKC had the two breeds listed and you were able to get dual registrations ( and single registrations) until some canine body (can't remember which one) kicked up a fuss and now you can only find them as American Staffordshire BT's. This breeder also stated that they were two seperate breeds but people have been mixing the two to produce what we now know as AmStaff.

Are they two seperate breeds still and can they be DNA profiled to prove that?

Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation regarding this (including info in this thread).

For the record the APBT & American Staffordshire Terrier were EXACTLY the same breed up until the 1930's when APBT enthusiasts in a desire to create a show version of the breed started breeding selected examples of the APBT that fitted a certain criteria & decided on the name of American Staffordshire Terrier for the 'new breed'. They have been 2 seperate breeds ever since but are still 'basically' the same dog.

As a matter of interest the APBT breed was not able to be registered with the AKC so the UKC was set up entirely for the purpose of registering the APBT with a kennel club & for some time various dogs were dual registered as an APBT with the UKC & as a American Staffordshire Terrier with the AKC.

As for the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, he is an entirely different breed altogether but unfortunately due to misinformation is being tarred with the same brush.

I have been a SBT owner/exhibitor for the past 25 years & have had known quite a few Amstaff's & APBT's owners over the years, i also have a veritable library of books on the various 'bull breeds' which i am a fan of.

Altough this is a very basic & brief outline of the 'true' history i hope it goes some way to explaining the facts!...

[Red Fox]

Thanks for that info Steve11, have passed it on.

I got to meet the puppy yesterday. He is a real little cutie, needs some training but overall seems like a lovely dog. He had a great time running round the yard with my boy and was very confident being left on his own in the pen we set up for him.

They are planning on doing some obedience training with him after he has had all his vaccinations so hopefully with a bit of training and socialisation he will be fine.

[Monah]

Steve 11, that's what I've read too. No different from many breeds that have working and 'show' lines, like most working dogs (BCs, kelpies, ) even greyhounds etc, still the same dog.

Secret Kei, a relative of my OH has a lovely Amstaff (Cairns) and he does tracking and agility!!! and is terrific, his best friend is the cat, they sleep together. Please tell your brother they are very capable of doing all sorts of things and maybe he will get interested in dong things with the dog, obed. is great of course, a good starting point. I agree, Salisbury is not the best

[Red Fox]

Why not just simply register the dog with the council as a Staffy/Labrador cross and keep it out of trouble. When registering a dog in S.A., the council doesn't request anything more that what you tell them and the large amount of crossbreeds in the community, who could identify in a puppy what it really is???. You were told it was a Staffy/Lab cross, liked the puppy and purchased it as most people would do in that instance. If it grows into something resembling a restricted breed, deny any knowledge of it and let the council prove it. If the dog has no adverse history with the council and is friendly with the Ranger investigating it, I seriously doubt any further action would occur.

What a great sollution???!!

Being responsible & truthful is a far better way to keep the dog safe.

With the proper socialisation & training this dog could be a great example of the breed. Thats what we need, to get them out there to be seen for the wonderful dogs they are not what people read about them or how they are seen them in the media.

The puppy is already chipped as an AmStaff. He will also be registered as such.

I dont think lying is the way to go either... can only lead to more trouble. Plus he looks EXACTLY like a little AmStaff should

[Storm2008]

He looks alot like my Storm...Thats the trouble with buying one without the papers..can lead into all sorts of troubles..

In fact they both look like twins lol

Edited May 5, 2009 by Storm2008