Kelpie-i Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Okay this is something that I have been stewing over for a while now. I thought I had the art of "jackpotting" treats down to an art, until the Brenda Aloff conference where she recommended differently. Then I read an article written by Karen Pryor which states that jackpotting should be done as per the method I was already using, so now I am curious to know what everyone else does. Jackpotting as per casino slot machine win: Ie giving handfuls of yummy treats all in one go! Jackpotting as per casino win with the dollars falling from the slot machine ie. one by one with .5 second intervals. Both are jackpots and both would have the desired effect....what do you do??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 Both Yeah but when do you use what and why?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I have a special "jackpot" for Darcy - the ball. If he does something really good, its end of exercise and a quick play. For treats, if the duration of giving/eating them is longer for jackpot, I wouldn't have thought it mattered much whether they got a handful or one after another although one after another extends the amount of time YOU are involved in the treating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Agree with PF - I don't do anything specifically for one exercise, but generally what is convenient at the time (e.g. handful of kibble instead of one piece at a time and one piece at a time if I'm using different treats from different pockets) - I mix up the way I deliver the reward as well......from the hand, tossed on the ground, jackpot container on the ground etc etc Keeps the little rascal guessing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Interesting.. i tend to jackpot multiple treats one after another. Why? I think i maintain more focus and motivation this way- but maybe thats because one of my own dogs in particular sees a handful of food as a 'meal' and is much less excited than treat after treat. When i was training scent detection, i also used the combined jackpot at the end of a working session so it may be habit from there too- i think you have to refocus the dog more when giving a combined jackpot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I think it all comes down to what your personal preference is. Some people like to use a high repitition rate, and some (including me) basically train using jackpots only. I think listening to well known trainers is one of the best things that you can do, but it doesn't mean that one opinion on method is gospel either, so no need to be confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 Thanks guys. I think it's what the dog perceives as a jackpot which is the most important rule, I suppose. One by one most certainly keeps focus for longer and allows the dog to 'savour' each treat, but I also think some dogs will see the handful in one go as the jackpot. It's interesting what you read and also what others believe a jackpot to be. There is obviously no right or wrong here, just interested in your views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I do the handful all at once when jackpotting Diesel (though most often done from a container or lid on the ground). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I've found when training my dog that giving her a handful of treats really didn't seem to count as a jackpot. It just took her longer to get through and she lost some focus on the task. I have always tended to do use the method Brenda' described of one at a time and for my dog this works as she maintains her focus on me. If she has a handful she stuffs them and her head goes down and she's chomping away, thinking goodness knows what. One at a time method, she's still watching me and knows we're still working and she's done something good and waiting and watching for what might happen next. But that's what works for me and for this dog at this time!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Thanks guys. I think it's what the dog perceives as a jackpot which is the most important rule, I suppose.One by one most certainly keeps focus for longer and allows the dog to 'savour' each treat, but I also think some dogs will see the handful in one go as the jackpot. It's interesting what you read and also what others believe a jackpot to be. There is obviously no right or wrong here, just interested in your views. I think you've nailed it Kelpie- i After some more thought.... When I'm shaping I'll use a handful of kibble as a jackpot....if Zig has got something right but I want him to take it to the next level, I will give 2 or 3 pieces of kibble for what he is already doing and then give him a handful if he cracks the next step. If I stop treating he gets really dejected, but keeping that pattern makes him keen as hell to work out where we are going with the shaping. If it was something where I was trying to build up duration/focus, like heel work, I probably swap between the two methods to keep him on his toes. Hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I do the jackpot thing as a big performance. Running, clapping to the treat bag, patting dog on the way and then handfuls of treats. I like to feed from my hand not just let the dog eat from the jackpot item. I tend to finish training after a jackpot too. As my dogs are more into pats, they get a good belly rub to finish off the jackpot! (As I train on the front lawn my neighbours must like I am nuts!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) ;) It's ok, JulesP......I do the same - my neighbours think I'm off my rocker! Funny thing is, my OH will be on the computer and he will get so enthused by my whooping and praising that he joins in: "Good Boy, Zig, whoo hoo!" :rolleyes: Edited March 18, 2009 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I've found when training my dog that giving her a handful of treats really didn't seem to count as a jackpot. Hi Jigsaw Many people that train using a jackpot method, mostly end the exercise with it. (so no focus issues) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 I'm thinking a little more about this now and I'll try to explain what I am thinking.... Wouldn't using the one by one method keep the dog calmer and more focussed as opposed to using the all in one method whereby you tend to get really excited along with the dog? The latter almost signals the end of training, even if it isn't. If jackpotting for, say, the dog choosing to look away from another dog/distraction and looking at you instead, in this case you might want to use the one by one so that he maintains the focus. In the case of a super-dooper recall, say the dog coming away from another dog, you might want to use the all in one approach as the jackpot but then I don't want to dog to eat all the treats and walk off. I want to keep him with/around me, so in which case I administer treats one on one, on a slower schedule. This would be jackpotting too??!!! Have I confused everyone yet :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I use the "one after the other after the other after the other" in very quick succession. Not "5-second intervals" (???). Throughout the "jackpot" I continue to praise the dog. So the reward process can last 5 seconds or more. I mean think about it ..... wouldn't you prefer to have a lolly and know that there's another one to come, rather than a whole stack shoved in your gob, and then it's done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I'm thinking a little more about this now and I'll try to explain what I am thinking....Wouldn't using the one by one method keep the dog calmer and more focussed as opposed to using the all in one method whereby you tend to get really excited along with the dog? The latter almost signals the end of training, even if it isn't. It depends what you want - when I'm shaping a behaviour that doesn't come naturally (like retrieving with Zig) I absolutely want him to get really, really excited so that he associates the article with the best damn fun he's going to have all night :rolleyes: And Zig doesn't think that jackpot means training is over....he knows he could get another jackpot if he plays his cards right. So it's about prior experience too. When training is over I just say "no more". At the beach this morning, there was an annoying little dog that kept harassing Ziggy so I asked him for focus and kept rewarding intermittently but regularly whilst he watched me and ignored the dog. I wouldn't call that a jackpot - I was rewarding duration. If jackpotting for, say, the dog choosing to look away from another dog/distraction and looking at you instead, in this case you might want to use the one by one so that he maintains the focus. OK - when my dog looked away I would give a NRM and wait for him to make up his mind what to do next. This morning he quickly looked sideways at the dog but returned his focus to me with no reminder as that was so much more rewarding. In the case of a super-dooper recall, say the dog coming away from another dog, you might want to use the all in one approach as the jackpot but then I don't want to dog to eat all the treats and walk off. I want to keep him with/around me, so in which case I administer treats one on one, on a slower schedule. This would be jackpotting too??!!! I would probably jackpot the recall AND then ask for focus and reward on a slower schedule (not a jackpot by definition) OR praise the recall enthusiastically, then ask for focus, then jackpot at the very end! There really are so many permutations. I try not to think too much about the theory as you'll turn yourself inside out At the end of the day, if it works I do it ;) Have I confused everyone yet Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I use quite a lot of treats when training so if I jackpot it has to be pretty big. It isn't just one handful, it would be a couple of handfuls. One treat after the other would just be normal treating. Kelpie what you are describing is my normal treating schedule. But I don't have trouble with focusing and am usually trying to hype my dogs up a bit! They also don't walk off after the jackpots. I do save jackpots for something super and like to end on the super thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 I use the "one after the other after the other after the other" in very quick succession. Not "5-second intervals" :rolleyes: Erny it was .5 second not 5 second Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I give heaps at once. I also end when I jackpot so don't really care about focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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