Guest RosieFT Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I have posted this in the terrier breed section and the obedience section looking for help.. I was hoping to get some insight into dealing with the terrier brain, in particular, the Smooth Fox Terrier brain! We have a gorgeous fox terrier who incedently turns 1 tomorrow, named Rosie. She has fitted in well in our family and has brought us much more joy than frustration, however, she does get very intense, if not obsessive about certain things and I was wondering what the best way to deal with this is. If there is a way! The worst thing is still the hose, it is the most amazing creature that must be attacked whenever possible and in lieu of anything else! Even when turned off, she has discovered that if you shake it, occasionally, water droplets will fly out the end and so she will attack it whenever possible - we now keep it in the shed. If I fill up her water bowl, she will fly around for awhile afterwards sniffing at any dropped water, into the garden bed near by etc. BUT, she is better about the reticulation now, she used to go mental about that, but we can have it running and not have her fly out the dog door to get drenched and attack each sprinkler head. I can walk her past front lawns with retic going, and even people hosing in their own gardens - which is something I never thought would improve. But if we are using the hose, she cannot contain herself. She is not completely switched off to commands, but she is tentative and ready to fly off again with every fibre in her body and will not listen for long. If she hears me using fly spray, she will come flying in from wherever she is to leap up at it and every fibre in her body is poised to attack. If i leave it in sight, she will boing up and down looking at it. When I use a pump/spray bottle of water on my daughter's hair when getting her ready for school, if Rosie hears or sees it she again is by my side, whole body prepared to jump, play, attack water. Same if the kids try use water pistols, so i keep the dog separated when they do. Vaccuum cleaners and brooms are exciting, but I have worked on these from when she was a puppy and I either keep her interested in her own toys whilst I clean, or she will be corrected and after a few corrections will give up - for awhile at least. There is not the whole body tension and focus of when water or sprays are involved. She loves to retrieve and will fetch anything you throw for her, but her favourite is balls. Any ball. If we don't have a tennis ball, she will round up a soccer ball, football etc. She is very ball focused, but water overrides this for sure. She will "attack" the ball throwing stick if it is left around. She can not be trusted with toys in the house as she has learnt (my fault, clever dog) to push them under furniture and then scrabbles and scratches at the floor/furniture to attempt to retrieve them. This is because when she first did it, it was unintentional, but i dragged it out for her and tossed it away. Repeat this a couple of times and voila! she thinks she has found a sure fire way to get someone to throw it for her! Unfortunately, before we dumb humans cottoned on, she did it one day when I was out and my husband was in garden and kids didn't retrieve it for her and she damaged our couch trying to get it out again. So now, if we ignore her with her toys, she will seek out low furniture, couches, chest of drawers etc., and push toy underneath then start up her scrabbling - hoping to get us to throw it for her. We now say "enough" and put it out of reach, the game is over if she does this. I spoke to a couple who had a 4mth foxie at the dog beach last week and theirs is exactly the same with the hose. They cannot water anything without the dog going 'crazy' and jumping into the pots etc. They told me that they spoke to a man at the beach with 2 adult foxies who dive into his pool and submerge themselves to get at the water jets. If he is filling the pool with a hose, they dive right to the bottom and attack the hose.!!!! I have done a fair bit of training with her, and can get her to sit etc. when the spray/water is around, but not for long. She is a quivering bundle of energy and she seems unable to contain herself for long. I have managed to 'train' her to ignore the lawnmower, broom and vaccuum cleaner (still needs reinforcing each new time). Is this what other terriers are like? other foxies? Food training only works if she is not obsessing over water or balls. Just to balance this up, she does not dig, does not bark, has been great with my kids, is good to train (in the back yard...), is a loving and snuggly member of our family. But she is treated like a dog, and has to 'earn' things like her dinner. She will sit and look me in the eye automatically before i release her for her dinner. She will wait, while I open the front door or side gate and only go through when released. She can leave it, 'give', fetch, sit, lie down, wait, stay, watch, come on command - but will have to say these are not infallible when distracted when out of the back yard...... her walking on a leash is still a work in progress and every walk has very good, and very annoying moments to it as she can be distracted and I am then not there. Obviously, her focus is not easily turned off something once it has her attention. I knew to a fair extent what we were getting into with the terrier temperment, and on the whole are satisfied that we have a wonderful family dog, but I am concerned these 'intense' traits may cause more problems for the dog down the track. Should I just accept it as part of the package and contain her inside when hosing? will it get worse/better as she ages if I ignore it? Is this the prey drive that I have managed to completely mess up and not 'shut down' because I have no idea! :-) thanks for reading if you got this far! I got very frustrated with her on the weekend with the hose and that is not fair on the dog. She reminds me of a thoroughbred horse, their brains seem to have a switch that can be flicked. They are bright, compliable super horses to work with, but they seem to flip into a mode where they go a bit loony toons for a bit, then flip back to 'normal'. Their brains are either on or off.... Rosie seems a bit like that. When she is good and listening, she is super but when she switches modes, I could run around doing back flips and she would not notice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I know my bull terriers were obsessive with watering and pram wheels etc, and a friend of mines BT had an obsession with moving feet. At one stage, one of my boys escaped after a salesman left the front gate open, found a lady walking a pram past the house (you can imagine the rest!) then later a lady down the street finds him in her front garden, and proceeds to try to scare him off with a hose. He had a great time, and I got a call from the cops, some of whom knew me, and took him back home. The thing that I done to improve it was to just break the cycle of each of the obsessions, like teaching a sit stay, and rewarding for ignoring distraction. You can set it up just before his normal dinner time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 ok well we have a list of what she is not allowed to do ... what CAN she let all her terrier exhuberance out on? How does she wear herself out and keep her mind stimulated during the day or when you play with her? Terriers are high energy little working dogs with drive, they want something to do and if you dont provide, well, they find it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RosieFT Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) Thankyou both for your input. Nekhbet - that sounds a little harsh, i hope you didn't mean it to. Do you really think there is a list of things she can't do? I am just concerned about the hose, the spray can and the spray bottle - for the main because she jumps up and tries to bite them and I have children with faces way closer to the ground who do on occasion use water toys or whatever. Am I being unfair on the dog? Are you suggesting that I should let her chase the hose? This is a genuine question, I am more than happy to, but was concerned it was the *wrong* thing to do. One of the things i did try initially (after somebody told me i should let her play in water), was to get her to sit and wait and then I rewarded her with an "ok" and allowed her to chase the hose for a bit, and then she had to sit and wait while i did a bit more watering and then released her to do it again. HOWEVER, other advice was that this was incorrect. I am actually looking for help to do the right thing by the dog. If it is ok for dogs to be this obsessive/intense, and it was one of the things I was asking, then that is fine. I was concerned that I was 'feeding' an obsession by playing with her with the hose *at all*. So is it ok, or not? I have not done so in months, not after she was kenelled for 5 days and the kennel owner told me it was an obsession and I should get onto it. She put me onto the dog listener books, Jane Fennel and I have read both. I have also read a couple of other training books, but none that address this type of thing directly. I am trying to do the right thing. hence i am on here asking for help. I understand they are dogs with drive, I just wanted to know what was ok. I am a stay at home mum, so most days I am around. Rosie gets a walk every day without fail and will get walked up to an open space and have a ball thrown for her to chase some days, or to do some excersizes like a sit and wait, and then I run across oval and call her so she gets to run that way. Last night she met up with a whippet and they had the best game of chasey :-) . At home, whenever I go to hang up washing etc. she gets a toy to play with with me whilst i am out there. She is an indoor dog and has my company and the kids company all day. On a weekend we might go to a dog beach or take her to see other dogs within our extended family unit. She does also have a relatively large yard to play in, and will do a few maddie laps with her tail pinned down or with a toy in her mouth, much to our amusement. This can be after a walk or just for the hell of it. I was doing weekly obedience with her, but in the end felt it was not helping her training, rather it was crushing my spirit for a myriad of reasons. I do ensure she is socialised with other dogs still though. I was toying with the idea of starting agility with her once she was fully mature as i am sure she would love it. However, i also have an almost 4 and a 6yr old child and after being a bit burned by the obedience classes am weighing up the idea. Oh, she also does have outside toys to play with at all times that are too big to fit under furniture *grin*. and she also has the company of our cat, Mishka :-) , and they do actually get along. We have also just finished 2 weeks of looking after my parents' two bichons, and on occasion look after my FIL kelpie cross, so she does have dog company at home on occasion. Although our cat hates the other dogs. She is a relaxed and happy dog at home when none of these stimulus ie. water or spray are around. When i come home she waits patiently at the gate tail wagging, either sitting or standing - no barking, no mad rushing around. She is calm and not hyper at all, until the hose comes out or somebody comes to visit... but we are working on that, and even that excitement over new people only lasts a short while. She hangs out with the kids when they are playing and loves nothing more to be with her pack - well ok, I lie, she *would* actually prefer a hose.. hee hee I hope this has answered your question as I would like to think she is a satisfied dog... we do play ball with her and my husband loves to run around with her and a footy :-) We do go by the adage "you have to have a sense of humour if you own a foxie!" and she does delight us with her intelligence and antics! So please don't get me wrong, all I am looking for is some advice, whether it is to just let her jump around like a loon and chase the hose and the spray or whatever! thankyou in advance, i do appreciate your time :-) Edited March 16, 2009 by RosieFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanglen Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 She sounds like wonderful fun! She also sounds very similar to my 14 month old labrador girl! We haven't had hoses in the yard for years and the girls watch through the windows very keenly! The things you are experiencing are just the things she loves and wants to get obsessed about, it's not an issue unless you need a perfect dog, and since that doesn't sounds like you, I think I would just accept them and have a laugh at it! My girls are obsessed by water but we haven't been allowed sprinklers for a long time, I suspect that when they come back, I shall just stay away, this latest pup would kill them in minutes!! ha ha! As it they worked the tap back to the wall after the hose was disconnected last year, and this year they now work as a team to get the childproof pool gate open for a swim. Subsequently we have chains and padlocks on the pool gate and we love the things that waken their fun spirit! Anjoy your girl, she sounds like a legend! As long as she isn't getting grumpy with these things, pull up and deck chair and have a giggle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanglen Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 ps it sounds like she would love agility. 6 years old sounds a bit young for training but could they come and get involved too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 sorry my smilie dissapeared I meant it more in a mental exercise way. Yes agility and even flyball would be FABULOUS for her! Also look up things like clicker trainging and shaping to teach her tricks. THere are some areas with earthdog clubs too she would excell at that. If she's ball/toy obsessed it would be worth having someone show you some drive training techniques to control her through her prey drive and also teach her when its OK to release her drive - kids being a definate no no. when you were letting her play with the hose was she going at the children or was she more restrained? I let my dogs play with things like the hose but only when I say they can. The hose lives in the backyard and no one tried to kill it when we finish the game Depends on the dog and the technique. she definately sounds like the type of dog that could do anything! I love terriers but I opted for the big version of a high drive dog with a Belgian Malinois so we're both crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Your FT sounds like a reward based trainers dream dog. If you're worried about any of your dogs behaviours I would suggest you find a reward based trainer in your area to come and help you. If you can live happily with your dog's water obsession, she sounds delightful. All of the obsession's she has could be used for training the perfectly behaved dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumbeat Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Rosie FT - it's a pity we live on opposite sides of the river as your Foxie would be a perfect playmate for my Lakeland She also loves to chase the hose (as did our dear departed Drum even at age 14) and as my OH thinks it's a great game I guess she'll keep on doing it! The broom and duster are also things to be chased although we are improving with the vacuum cleaner - it's a good excuse for not being a 'perfect housewife' don't you think Terriers may be frustrating at times but they can always make you laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Her Majesty Dogmad Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 We had a Lakeland Terrier in England who was similar to this (crazy) and my darling foxy was the same with a hose. They need an awful lot of stimulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RosieFT Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) Nekhbet - the kids don't use the hose near her, I would not trust it. Rosie mainly tries to get the water jet, but has on one occasion misjudged and bit me (without breaking skin), and at that time, I was NOT wanting her to play. There is improvement since I last posted about help with the water months ago, in the sense that I can water my 3 citrus pots with her NOT jumping into the pots etc and so there is a semblence of 'control' but it is pretty weak. A few weeks ago I tried to do some training whilst my husband and kids washed the car, I took her far enough away that I had control, but soon lost it as we got closer. I think it is the way she gets so intense and focused that concerned me a bit. BUT, last time i did some training with her, I managed to distract her with a toy to fetch for a bit whilst I watered pots and that is *huge* as normally nothing will deter her from her hose mission. She is happy to run through kids play tunnel, go up their slide stairs and down the slide :-) She would be great at agility and i love the sound of flyball. When i get more time perhaps.... PAX - interesting you say that about the obession and well behaved dog. If only I knew more :-) . She would have been a super star in a knowledgable trainers hand. But hopefully she still gets enough stimulation from us! alanglen - you made me feel less alone! :-) as do you drumbeat, dogdude and dogmad :-) I must admit I felt better and less that I had failed her after talking to the other foxie owners at the beach, and discovering attacking hoses is obviously a genetic trait *wink* . Drumbeat - she would love a terrier to play with, those bichons just cannot hack it! LOL too much fluff to be grabbed onto :-) I have to store the outside broom handle down and fluff in the air, but I found it in the middle of the lawn this afternoon - me thinks it met its match... LOL She loves to sneak into the kids room and try get outside with one of their fluffy toys in her mouth, but she goes into what she thinks is stealth mode. It is hilarious to see when you catch her in the act, she has this look in her eye like "nothing to see here, nothing at all" and walks so.. very.. slowly... one stiff leg at a time towards her dog door. Hilarious when it is a giant purple unicorn or something... The number of times the yellow boobah has had to go in the machine..... it is her favourite.. the kids know to keep their doors shut if we are not around so it is their fault. How is yours with her water bowl? Rosie now has a tiny bowl on a huge tray in the laundry and a huge bowl outside as she likes to drink with her feet in the bowl and kind of snorkel with her whole nose in their scooping it up. Oh and all toys *need* to be dunked too... She broke her last ball last night, and so started bringing fallen lemons to my husband to throw for her instead hee hee She is funny :-) . We had a great walk tonight and when we got home I had a great game of 'run run' with her where she goes into zoomie mode and runs to me, around me and away and back. This dog just loves life and it is great to experience and share. :-) I feel much better about the behaviour and will relax about it, so thankyou. I think the kennel owner worried me excessively as she went on and on about how bad compulsive disorders were. She found out her hose fetish when trying to hose out kennels, as I had stupidly not warned her. If I need a private trainer I will be back to ask for a recommendation for one in Perth. Edited March 16, 2009 by RosieFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 there is a difference between true compulsive disorders (such as shadow chasing, spinning, imaginary fly catching etc) and just being a really high drive, motivated dog. Dogs with disorders can be difficult to control and will at times not stop their behavior for anything. Find a good sport club and go have fun ;) oh and uh, where are the photos? hmmm??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumbeat Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 How is yours with her water bowl? Rosie now has a tiny bowl on a huge tray in the laundry and a huge bowl outside as she likes to drink with her feet in the bowl and kind of snorkel with her whole nose in their scooping it up. Oh and all toys *need* to be dunked too... I bought a K9 Cruiser bowl for inside as I was getting fed upwith the puddles on the floor, she has an ordinary one outside which she occasionally dunks her whole face in. She still sometimes snorkels if I'm filling a bucket of water - at least it keeps her beard clean! I haven't managed to find a flyball or earthdog club in WA unless anyone knows different?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RosieFT Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Drumbeat - this bowl sounds like a winner! I just googled it, thankyou for posting about it. Nekhbet - photos.. why of course :-) thanks for asking :-) I just went and tried to take a few, but found it particularly difficult to get a good angle when she kept trying to come investigate! But you can get the general idea LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RosieFT Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Who says terriers and cats can't get along? or with 'rats' (JK i love Daphne my SIL's dog!) heehee .. ok I will stop now :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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