Biting (6 Month Old Puppy)

[Red Fox]

Recently I have been having a problem with my 6 month old Ridgie boy with biting/tantrums.

Basically, the situation goes something like this-

- Trigger (I think), Kei doesn't get his own way with something, I stand my ground.

- He will then start jumping up at me and grabbing my arm with his mouth

- The more I stand my ground and say NO, the more hyped he becomes to the point that he will run a circle and leap towards me grabbing my arm.

- Eventually he will calm down and then back to normal

There is absolutely no growling or bearing his teeth, he only goes for my arm and only does this to me.

Kei has been taught bite inhabition continuously since the age of around 4 weeks, first by his breeder and then by us, using the method described by Ian Dunbar (yelp and ignore). He doesn't bite at any other time.

As these episodes seem to be a response to not getting his own way I am reluctant to turn my back and ignore (also would be very difficult when he is bahaving this way) I have tried growling at him which makes things worse.

Last night he had a tantrum,I stood my ground and every time he bit I shoved my hand in his mouth and pressed down firmly under his tongue with my thumb. Enough to be uncomfortable for him but not enough to cause pain.

I stood my ground until he stopped jumping and then left him outside on his own for 5-10 mins to calm down.

When I let him in again I had him sit and drop before opening the door, he came in and was back to his normal calm self.

Before anyone asks- Yes, I need to to hire a behaviourist to check him out. Having a bit of trouble finding one in a rural area but worse case scenario we will get some distance training and advice. I am also using the TOT with him.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why this is happening and what i can do about it now?

Thank you

[Lablover]

Recently I have been having a problem with my 6 month old Ridgie boy with biting/tantrums.

Basically, the situation goes something like this-

- Trigger (I think), Kei doesn't get his own way with something, I stand my ground.

- He will then start jumping up at me and grabbing my arm with his mouth

- The more I stand my ground and say NO, the more hyped he becomes to the point that he will run a circle and leap towards me grabbing my arm.

- Eventually he will calm down and then back to normal

There is absolutely no growling or bearing his teeth, he only goes for my arm and only does this to me.

Kei has been taught bite inhabition continuously since the age of around 4 weeks, first by his breeder and then by us, using the method described by Ian Dunbar (yelp and ignore). He doesn't bite at any other time.

As these episodes seem to be a response to not getting his own way I am reluctant to turn my back and ignore (also would be very difficult when he is bahaving this way) I have tried growling at him which makes things worse.

Last night he had a tantrum,I stood my ground and every time he bit I shoved my hand in his mouth and pressed down firmly under his tongue with my thumb. Enough to be uncomfortable for him but not enough to cause pain.

I stood my ground until he stopped jumping and then left him outside on his own for 5-10 mins to calm down.

When I let him in again I had him sit and drop before opening the door, he came in and was back to his normal calm self.

Before anyone asks- Yes, I need to to hire a behaviourist to check him out. Having a bit of trouble finding one in a rural area but worse case scenario we will get some distance training and advice. I am also using the TOT with him.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why this is happening and what i can do about it now?

Thank you

Does he know any obedience commands. Sit? Sit and reward. He will learn jumping has less value.

[Red Fox]

Lablover- Yes, he knows all his obedience commands and we attend obedience classes weekly (and he did puppy classes too)

Normally he is quite receptive and I can get him to sit when his behaviour is inappropriate ie rushing to the door to greet people, chasing the cat etc.

He doesn't jump at any other time.

However when he goes into this tantrum/biting mode he is so worked up that it is almost impossible to get through to him this way, unless I happen to have a very desirable food reward on hand -which I normally dont unless we're training...

[Lablover]

Lablover- Yes, he knows all his obedience commands and we attend obedience classes weekly (and he did puppy classes too)

Normally he is quite receptive and I can get him to sit when his behaviour is inappropriate ie rushing to the door to greet people, chasing the cat etc.

He doesn't jump at any other time.

However when he goes into this tantrum/biting mode he is so worked up that it is almost impossible to get through to him this way, unless I happen to have a very desirable food reward on hand -which I normally dont unless we're training...

When is he frantic/in a tantrum? I think keeping a diary is worthwhile.

[Nekhbet]

because he's a puppy and he's getting to his first teenage period

also he has never had a consequence for it - yelp and ignore. uh huh. Dog ups the ante as there has never been anything to prevent his brain going 'come on, ramp it up a notch. You know nothing will happen"

Stand your ground. If he starts the tantrum grab him and put him outside, conversely spray him in the face with some water (mini water pistols are quite great to carry around)

As for the tongue method works a treat. For tougher dogs I usually press and keep the pressure on until they really start to squirm. Conversely if he's attached to you, roll his top lips into his mouth and press against his teeth until he lets go.

Get tough with him, dont let tantrums begin and escalate. As soon as you see he's getting antsy about something put him outside or redirect his attention. My rottweiler was the same, we started calling him 'ass muncher' because if you ignored him he would come up behind and nip you on the butt. He still throws tanties occasionally - and his highness is VERY demanding the trick is to not give in and keep your sanity.

conversely I swap you one demanding rottweiler for your ridgie :p

eta - what corrective aids do you use - it may pay to use a correction chain etc to prevent escalation

Edited March 16, 2009 by Nekhbet

[Lablover]

eta - what corrective aids do you use - it may pay to use a correction chain etc to prevent escalation

Correction. Fine but cue for known commands) ...correct and reward - all very quickly.

The best trainers I have seen are those who give excellent feed back to a dog. Do you agree?

[Nekhbet]

lablover that is true. But when a dog is bouncing about like a ferret on speed getting through can be difficult I dont mean yanking the dog off its feet, but a few physical pokes like 'OI scuse me over here' can help the brain redirect from the stimulus back to the owner and THEN you can actually get through to said brain which is now ready to reciee your feedback.

Trying to get through to an over excited dog ... we've seen it before ...

"FIdo ... fido ... FIIIDDOOOOOO ... fido .. no ... fido .. stop ... sit ... sit .... sit'

counter productive and for the average owner increases frustration, which in turn decreases the chance of the dog learning something from the situation.

It was only a suggestion, and only to be introduced under supervision. I find a series of little niggles can help more then whopping cracks at the dog.

[persephone]

SecretKei- do you go obedience at Barmera? No one there capable of understanding/helping?

[Jigsaw]

Recently I have been having a problem with my 6 month old Ridgie boy with biting/tantrums.

Basically, the situation goes something like this-

- Trigger (I think), Kei doesn't get his own way with something, I stand my ground.

- He will then start jumping up at me and grabbing my arm with his mouth

- The more I stand my ground and say NO, the more hyped he becomes to the point that he will run a circle and leap towards me grabbing my arm.

- Eventually he will calm down and then back to normal

I would also be giving some consideration to the triggers and what you can do to change these. When he is in this sort of state your verbal "no" is just noise and if you're saying it louder and louder it's probably adding to his excitement! Can you leave a six foot leash on him to drag around (cut off handle) so you could pick it up or stand on it and give him a correction or get him more easily under control?

[Red Fox]

Thanks Nekhbet, it really is like a teenage tantrum.. I can see that look in his face that says 'what you gonna do about it?' I feel that it's not aggressive, just defiant.

Last nights tantrum was over me wiping his butt (he had a bit of poop stuck) and him not wanting me to :rolleyes: He tried to grab the tissue, I said no... well you get the idea.

Will keep up the tongue method then, it seemed to work. He definetly needs some form of consequense for bad behaviour it just hard knowing what to do without wanting to throttle him! I'll have to work on identifying and stopping the tantrum before it starts if I can.

Yep, we use a half check chain (Martingale). Works well and if he has a tantrum on a walk (has happened twice) I am able to control him with the collar and march him home.

conversely I swap you one demanding rottweiler for your ridgie

Very tempted on taking you up on the rottie offer... how bout I swap you my 9 year old son instead.. he could use a bit of 'training' :p

[Nekhbet]

awesome rottie for a 9 year old ...

i'll have him back desexed, microchipped and crate trained in no time

it really is like a teenage tantrum.. I can see that look in his face that says 'what you gonna do about it?' I feel that it's not aggressive, just defiant.

oh its exactly that. Just like when kids try that extra level. All dogs go through it in some way or another. Hence why I dont like 'complete lack of consequence' training for dogs.

My rottie is reaching the 18 month mark and OH MY DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN he's turned into Mr Opposite.

Your say outside ... he runs off into another room

he headbutts the door to come in or woofs to get attention (we thought he grew out of this)

he's playing smarty pants, I cant hear you :p

give him a command and he looks at you, blinks like you're an idiot and walks off

so I share your pain

[Guest Pandii]

oooooooooooo Can I share, I have a female rotti who is the queen of trouble

Give her the outside command and she would go to walk away, grab her to pull her outside, you know cos I said OUTSIDE, and she would park her fat arse, grab the collar and she would turn to mouth me, not a hope in hell.

She thought she won, I was back with the water pistol and check chain and lead, she did learn very quickly

Mine do the bang on the door, but worst one can open it, they let the Shar Pei in, nope he didnt get in trouble, then the x breed, nope hes not in trouble for coming inside, then comes fat bitch looking proud as punch.

She is much better now but still pulls the, "what did you say?? You wernt talking to me were you??"

[ILK]

What about one of Ceasar Milan's methods where he uses an empty soft drink bottle full of pebbles. When the dog lunges at you give the bottle one hard loud shake to shock the dog into submission and tell him to sit.

The loud noise may or may not excite him more but it could be worth a try.

[dancinbcs]

Try to get hold of the book Think Dog by John Fisher. Fantastic advice on managing dogs that become dominant.

The other thing that works is a correctly taught dominance down. It is much easier to teach to little puppies but can be done with a bigger one. The point of a dominance down is that it is not a punishment it is simply advising the dog that you are in charge and they can therefore relax in your presence.

Luci Ellem at Camarna in Sydney teaches it the correct way in her puppy pre-school and puppies raised with this training then respond immediately to a soft growl. Stops them in their tracks whatever they are doing wrong. The other important part of the training is the watch command to get the dog to look to you for permission to do anything.

I once taught this method to some people with a large mature Labrador bitch that was becoming so much of a bully she was dangerous around the kids. The dog was not impressed at all the first time I rolled her over to demonstrate and sounded like she was going to eat me but I held on until she gave in and the owners followed up the training with startling results. Once she understood that the humans were in charge she became a typical friendly Lab.

[alanglen]

Is it dominant or is it his new game? When I do this, mum gets mad and shouts No at me! I'd do it again just for fun, and it is mentioned that he bounces around and grabs, it sounds like a game. So I jump around and grab at her clothing and she can't catch me! yeah. Sounds like a big game when human talks tough to pup, the pup talks back!

I would also suggest that the Ian Dunbar training was not complete. A pup who has learnt bite inhibition will never cause discomfot by grabbing, that's the idea of the method, they learn to with-hold he presure on the nibble. My last girl has been trained this way and whilst she is more "mouthy (with toys etc)" she has never marked anyone or anything and is far more gentle. I love it!

PS Be very careful with the above alpha rollover method. It has come up on this website before and whilst it can work well, if it doesn't work you may create a nightmare pooch!

For my opinion, I would have thought this had become a new game, all bit it too rough, but to the pup, a new game. New things that are weird like a tissue become an object for defiance and let's cahnge this mum from weird new thing to big game!

[Nekhbet]

A pup who has learnt bite inhibition will never cause discomfot by grabbing, that's the idea of the method, they learn to with-hold he presure on the nibble.

no dog should put their mouth on you at all. Sorry I dont think that many dogs, especially exhuberant puppies, are capable of the human like self control this is putting on them. I live by the rule that you DONT mouth me at all - and Diesels bum nipping was dealt with by a squeezed muzzle if he got in contact or squirting him with water if he snuck up behind.

if you dont want a dog to counter surf do you put their paw up on it and then teach backwards? Teach its OK to put paws up but you cant eat the food? No because we know one invariably leads to the other.

we are humans, not dogs, and hence should not be mouthed.

[persephone]

we are humans, not dogs, and hence should not be mouthed.

SecretKei.. do you do THIS with your ratbag?

It may just drum into his brain that YOU are the omnipotent- the giver of good things, and the one with the POWER !!

[Red Fox]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

alanglen, I think you could be right with the game theory. Kei doesn't normally apply any pressure with his bites during normal play, but tends to push it a bit when it comes to this 'game' (although he has never broken the skin)

dancinbcs, thank you I will do a search on the book and see what I can find.

ILUVKELPIES, not sure if the bottle would work for him, he tends to get excited over everything but i will do a bit more research on Ceasar Milans training methods

Pandii

[Red Fox]

we are humans, not dogs, and hence should not be mouthed.

SecretKei.. do you do THIS with your ratbag?

It may just drum into his brain that YOU are the omnipotent- the giver of good things, and the one with the POWER !!

Yep, we just started this recently. Hope it works for us