Aggressive Dogs And Group Obedience Classes

[ruthless]

Get in line Huski!

[huski]

We need to clone her

[squeak]

We need to clone her

Or, we could just all move to Melbourne! Now, only if I could get my OH to agree...

[ILK]

I've not experienced it personally but I have seen a number of dogs successfully trained in group obedience class on a check chain. From what I've seen it didn't work 100% of the time but the success rate was higher than not.

The trainer would take the dog to begin with far enough away from the other dogs not to stress the DA dog, but if it did react he would give the dog a quick hard check and say "Leave It". When the owner felt confident enough with this the trainer would hand the dog over and the training would be continued.

I have seen this work so successfully that the DA dogs have eventually been offlead with other dogs, not a worry in the world, but I have seen it go the other way where the dog became so stressed it couldn't be taught obedience at all. I guess these reactions could occur with any DA dog.

I'm not an expert on this so I am just offering what I've seen, it may be helpful info.

[CoffeeKath]

We have a 7 month old rescue dog, he is a shepherd x mastiff we were told. He is a great dog but has terrible problems with other dogs and he just goes a bit mental.

Anyway, the AWL recommended a trainer to us for Obedience Classes.

My husband took him to the first one and he was barking and pulling on his lead and all his hackles were up as soon as he was out of the car. The trainer said all his hackles being up was a bad sign and we would have to see how it went. She went and got a collar out of her box, something called a Sporn. Once that was on my husband said the dog soon calmed down but he was shown how to use it and when he needed to. I was and if I'm honest still am quite unsure about this but it does work there's no denying that.

There were about 10 to 15 dogs in that class, varying sizes and breeds of dogs. One particularly aggressive Rottweiler, probably as aggressive as our Eddie. The trainer put our Eddie in the middle of the circle of dogs and my husband says by the end of the session he was lying on his back rolling around on his mat not taking a blind bit of notice of the other dogs.

The next session I went as well. I was quite stressed from the start as yet again his hackles were completely up, right down his back. He was barking and pulling a little. We found ourselves a space and then the Rotti came from a direction behind us and spooked the dog so there was a lot of barking and pulling on both sides. The trainer moved Eddie again into the middle but the wind was blowing in his face and it was getting the poor Rotti wound up too so we moved to a corner. It took him some time to calm down and he remained spooked every time he was in the circle, out on the field doing the exercises with the other dogs around him he was absolutely fine though.

I have to say, from when I first saw my dog react to another dog I wondered if he would ever be able to be within eyesight of another dog - I do have hope that we will get there with him now. It's going to take a lot of effort.

[luvsdogs]

I say what Kavik says, except that I have also been to the club she mentioned and I consider their classes not small. there is over 10 people in the class.

Well this was on the Tuesday nights.

But instructors were quite good.

As an overall comment - in the clubs that I have been to (several) instructors are often not qualified anywhere near the standard needed for a agressive dog.

I go to the Saturday classes & in beginners pet dog classes we have 8 dogs per class with at least 2 instructors. The higher classes have more & sometimes have to be joined due to lack of instructors. Tuesday night training are the triallers mostly trained by an obedience judge.

[Kavik]

I say what Kavik says, except that I have also been to the club she mentioned and I consider their classes not small. there is over 10 people in the class.

Well this was on the Tuesday nights.

But instructors were quite good.

As an overall comment - in the clubs that I have been to (several) instructors are often not qualified anywhere near the standard needed for a agressive dog.

I go to the Saturday classes & in beginners pet dog classes we have 8 dogs per class with at least 2 instructors. The higher classes have more & sometimes have to be joined due to lack of instructors. Tuesday night training are the triallers mostly trained by an obedience judge.

I haven't been to the pet dog classes, but know they are taken by Delta instructors. When I initially called Western Suburbs and explained that my dog was dog aggressive, they suggested going to the Tuesday night trialling class regardless of whether I wanted to trial or not. I would think this is because being the trialling class the dogs would be better behaved and not as exciteable and more under control which is what you want for a reactive dog.

[luvsdogs]

I say what Kavik says, except that I have also been to the club she mentioned and I consider their classes not small. there is over 10 people in the class.

Well this was on the Tuesday nights.

But instructors were quite good.

As an overall comment - in the clubs that I have been to (several) instructors are often not qualified anywhere near the standard needed for a agressive dog.

I go to the Saturday classes & in beginners pet dog classes we have 8 dogs per class with at least 2 instructors. The higher classes have more & sometimes have to be joined due to lack of instructors. Tuesday night training are the triallers mostly trained by an obedience judge.

I haven't been to the pet dog classes, but know they are taken by Delta instructors. When I initially called Western Suburbs and explained that my dog was dog aggressive, they suggested going to the Tuesday night trialling class regardless of whether I wanted to trial or not. I would think this is because being the trialling class the dogs would be better behaved and not as exciteable and more under control which is what you want for a reactive dog.

That's right, on a couple of occasions we have put a reactive dog in the higher class to be with calmer less reactive dogs.

Edited March 17, 2009 by luvsdogs

[Kelpie-i]

I've not experienced it personally but I have seen a number of dogs successfully trained in group obedience class on a check chain. From what I've seen it didn't work 100% of the time but the success rate was higher than not.

The trainer would take the dog to begin with far enough away from the other dogs not to stress the DA dog, but if it did react he would give the dog a quick hard check and say "Leave It". When the owner felt confident enough with this the trainer would hand the dog over and the training would be continued.

I have seen this work so successfully that the DA dogs have eventually been offlead with other dogs, not a worry in the world, but I have seen it go the other way where the dog became so stressed it couldn't be taught obedience at all. I guess these reactions could occur with any DA dog.

I'm not an expert on this so I am just offering what I've seen, it may be helpful info.

ILK, using physical (lead) corrections to manage dog aggression is not a good idea. Firstly you are punishing the dog for being in an emotional state. When the dog is aggressing, barking etc, it is doing so for an emotional reason, ie it is fearful and it is displaying the only behaviour he knows will make the threat go away. Using corrections on a dog like this, is like me hitting someone over the head with a piece of 2 x 4 whenever they screamed at a spider or snake (or whatever they are fearful of).

Yes lead corrections might make the dog stop the growling or lunging (if done hard enough) but we are not changing the emotional state of the dog. Therefore we infact have a ticking time bomb on our hands that can go off any time. This dog has not learned any coping strategies and has not learned any other conditioned responses to the triggers. The only thing we have done is punish him for giving us any warning signals to tell us he is not comfortable......WE NEED THOSE WARNING SIGNALS!! It is the only form of communication from the dog to us. This is why we see so many dogs that simply lunge and bite without ever giving a warning growl or some sort of signal beforehand...because we have punished them for doing so.

Those dogs who end up romping around with other dogs after a couple of leash corrections never really had true dog aggression based on an emotional fear to start with. Their aggression may have been due to other reasons that did not have a deep rooted emotional base. Genetic based aggression is the worst to deal with as we can never "cure" it...only manage it and "mask" it the best we can.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[jaybeece]

Kelpie-i, I want to come and train at your club! Move to Sydney please :D

me too

Me three please!!! We went to one of your obedience classes as part of NDTF and I was very impressed.

Thank you guys. My sister lives in Sydney and she is always harping at me to move there...but I love Melbourne too much ;) It's only a 10 or so hour drive each week (oh and back again :D )

So....um any clues about where the new venue will be yet? ;) If it's closer to me than Keilor I wouldn't mind coming along some time.

[Kelpie-i]

So....um any clues about where the new venue will be yet? If it's closer to me than Keilor I wouldn't mind coming along some time.

Jaybeece if I tell you, I'm going to have to kill you

We are in the process of finalising the decision of which venue. Should be up and running by mid 09.

[JulesP]

Ohhhh near me and having herding facilities would be good (Yarra Valley btw!)

[jaybeece]

So....um any clues about where the new venue will be yet? If it's closer to me than Keilor I wouldn't mind coming along some time.

Jaybeece if I tell you, I'm going to have to kill you

We are in the process of finalising the decision of which venue. Should be up and running by mid 09.

Aaaaaw no fair :D Herding would be good actually (if you end up near me), the silly collie was trying to herd (or eat) possums tonight, she'd probably have a great time chasing things that can't bugger off over the fence on her.

[Fit for a King]

Years ago I attended group obedience at Fairfield RSPCA - there was a 15mo (from memory) rottie there that was HIGHLY dog and human aggressive - dog was muzzled even in the owner's car as it had bitten her a number of times....the "trainer" and I do use that term lightly used to have the owner lie on top of the dog (and this woman would have been in excess of 100 kilos) while the dog laid on its side on the ground...rest of the group were encouraged to walk up to the dog with their dogs etc and even step across it. Poor rottie would be frantically trying to get up - was the most diabolical thing to watch - I along with a few others refused pointblank to participate and protested to both the head trainer and to the facility manager. Got us nowehere - they believed it was the "only" way to control the dog. As an owner there is no way I would have done that to one of my animals....I went training elsewhere.

[sas]

I attended Brush Farm (Eastwood) about 3-4 years ago with an aggressive dog, what didn't work were the other people, they kept appraoching, even with the fluro necktie to show the dog needed space. The dog ended up trying to go for a young dog whose owner let her dog bounced all over him....SUPER! We never went back after that.

[sas]

Years ago I attended group obedience at Fairfield RSPCA - there was a 15mo (from memory) rottie there that was HIGHLY dog and human aggressive - dog was muzzled even in the owner's car as it had bitten her a number of times....the "trainer" and I do use that term lightly used to have the owner lie on top of the dog (and this woman would have been in excess of 100 kilos) while the dog laid on its side on the ground...rest of the group were encouraged to walk up to the dog with their dogs etc and even step across it. Poor rottie would be frantically trying to get up - was the most diabolical thing to watch - I along with a few others refused pointblank to participate and protested to both the head trainer and to the facility manager. Got us nowehere - they believed it was the "only" way to control the dog. As an owner there is no way I would have done that to one of my animals....I went training elsewhere.

Stupid trainer.

[Cosmolo]

We run our group classes similar to Kelpie i's and require that every dog with aggression issues do a private session first. It means that we know the dog and owner and can instruct them on specifics within a class- without this knowledge, it is very difficult for even the best instructor to advise properly in a group situation. An instructor who has never met the dog before cannot watch the dog every moment and may miss critical behaviour sequences within the class that influence how to handle the dog (and owner ). One or perhaps multiple private sessions prior to a group class are invaluable for dog, owner and trainer.

[superminty]

In my experience, attending group classes with a DA dog has been invaluable. There is no way we would be where we are now without it.

BUT:

*I am well-known at the club (trained a dog to the top class) so they know I know my stuff.

*I am NOT shy in letting A: the instructer, and B: the class know that my dog is NOT friendly and to kindly keep their distance unless I ok it. I will also word each new member to my level up on what the issue is. I find people take it well, but then we are in a level where the dogs are largely under control.

*I get there early and wait off to the side while the hooligans arrive (I know them all!) and work on focus. I only go down to the class once they're ready to start. I place my dog either on the end of the line or between dogs he is comfortable around (note: not friendly with, but I know the handler has control and I know the dog is safe).

*I am largely left alone to do my own thing should I choose i.e. I will opt out of some exercises depending on how my dog is going. He has good days and bad days.

*I am happy to explain my methods to anyone who asks, and have had a few people approach me after class to discuss their own "problem dog". It's not that the instructors aren't knowledgable, it's just that I have my own program and it bl**dy works!

Oh, and I am happy to YELL at people who disregard my instructions. It's amazing how quickly people pull up when you shout "STOP" at them! I have no problem with being the "rude lady with the kelpie". It keeps my dog safe!

The biggest problem I have is that dog does not look "not friendly". He is calm and attentive to me. He will wag his tail at certain dogs (note: desire to interact - tells you nothing about the type of interaction he is planning!). He is supremely well behaved in fact at club. So people will try to approach. I very politely say "sorry, my dog isn't friendly", move away and let them think what they want.

My club does not have a specific policy on aggressive dogs and, IMO, doesn't handle them very well. For me, it's a de-sensitisation and proofing opportunity only, however after 2 years of work I can now join in the regular exercises if I choose to.

[Kelpie-i]

SM, I think you make a very important point....the handler of a DA dog should not be backward in coming forward about their dog. Let everyone know that you need space!!. If you need to yell "Stop" then do so. I think too many DA dog owners can be somewhat shy, perhaps even a little embarrassed which doesn't do them any favours.

BTW, hard to believe that the dogs pictured in both mine and your avatars are brothers!!! Although this is a very old pic of Gabe. Different in looks but same in personality. Cash is the handsome one of the 2. :rolleyes:

Edited March 18, 2009 by Kelpie-i

[Cosmolo]

Agree Kelpie i- but some people just can't do that- its either not in their personality or they don't see the person coming up behind them because they are too busy concentrating on what they are doing. Thats why instructors have to have at least 2 pairs of eyes! :rolleyes: