Advice To Puppy Buyers

[sandgrubber]

I recently got a query from someone who bought a pup (Lucy) from me. The pup is now 4 to 5 months old and the family lives in an semi-remote area where they can expect a long drive before finding a good trainer. They are worried because the pup tends to get excited when playing with kids (ages ranging from 5 to 10 yrs), and this has gotten out of hand, with some breaks of skin. The pup is a Labrador. To my knowledge, no aggressive tendencies in bloodlines . . . Lucy is from her dam's forth litter and this is the first such question I've had, so I presume it's circumstantial. I don't have kids and don't feel well qualified to reply, so have tried to summarize what I can find from various sources. I come up with the following (in italics). I'd appreciate suggestions about how to say it better or direct the owner. (I previously suggested that it was important not to do anything that would seem, from Lucy's perspective, to reward excited behaviour). I'd like to end up with something useful to add to the "instruction" sheet I hand out to puppy buyers.

I've been trying to make sense out of a variety of sources with regard to puppy biting, particularly biting kids. Basically . . . retrievers (and other gun dogs) are mouthy dogs and this is a common problem. Correction methods include:

a. ignore (when pup gets excited, turn your back and teach kids to do same)

b. correct (scold, growl/hiss, or do something to imitate an older dog disciplining dog . . . some sort of fake bite using fingers on mouth/jaw or neck)

c. redirect (divert the excitement and get the pup to go for a toy rather than a child)

d. treat it as part of a larger problem of control/who is boss (eg use the triangle of temptation to install a sense that people are boss and kids are not litter-mates)

e. time out (when dog gets too wild, close it in to the laundry, a crate, or some other confining space)

f. muddle through and hope this is a development phase that will correct itself

People claim to have had success with all of these methods, and also by combinations of them. There are lots of devils in the details, and the details you have told me may not include the details that are most important in Lucy's case.

In general, with dog training, timing is important. Once a behaviour is triggered you don't want to do anything to allow it to escalate. So, regardless if whether it's ignore, correct, redirect, or time out don't let it go very far before you take action. Also, some time may be required for the method to sink in. For example, a time out approach may not get success until it has been used several times. But it may be possible to see that some approach is just escalating the behavior (eg, the pups responds to growling by treating it as part of a game and getting even more wild). If the approach is clearly making things worse, try something else.

I suspect the heart of the problem is in the interaction of the kids and the pup, and it may be easier to educate the kids, who do speak English, than the pup, who probably has a hard time understanding what is wanted and does have normal drives to play and interact. A good dog trainer may be able to help you communicate to the pup, but finding a trainer that is "good" for your circumstances may not be easy in a regional location.

Sorry I can't give you a clear recipe. Please keep in touch and let me know how you're doing.

Edited March 13, 2009 by sandgrubber

[The Spotted Devil]

Hi sandgrubber

This is purely from a personal perspective, but I would not be letting such a young, active, mouthy puppy "play" with kids of that age - supervised or not. I am a big believer in prevention so I may be being overly cautious here. I prefer to have calm, interactive, learning time to teach self-control rather than an all out play session where the excitement can unintentionally result in inappropriate but self-rewarding behaviour for the puppy. Just my opinion and I'm sure lots of people do it differently :D Not sure if that helps at all.

Edited March 13, 2009 by The Spotted Devil

[Vickie]

I have very strict rules in my house regarding children & dogs. As well as my own 2 children (4 & 10yo) and my own 4 dogs, we regularly have visiting children & visiting dogs & puppies.

Firstly I always refer to the dogs as being owned by the adult. eg Please move away from MY dog. My own children need to ask if they want to play with MY dogs. They are encouraged to co-exist & I make sure they know that any dog that lives or comes here is a NOT plaything for any child living or visiting here.

If children are playing, running, throwing balls etc, dogs are somewhere else.

If I am training dogs, children either sit quietly and watch or go somewhere else.

If I am playing with children, dogs are either in a drop watching, or they are somewhere else.

When we have a puppy here visiting or for training, my children have been taught that they are not to run around like loonies in the same area as the pup. If a pup runs & jumps at them, they are to turn away.

Children's bedroom doors are closed & human toys are picked up before puppy comes.

My children have never been allowed to correct any dog in any way. They are encouraged to ask dogs & puppies to sit/drop for a piece of food with owner's permission. And both children do more complex training with my dogs & some visiting dogs.

I don't find I have a lot of issues with jumping or biting when puppies come. Puppies mostly jump/bite children because they are exciting when they run & scream. When my own dog's were pups, they were supervised & never allowed free run of a house full of children.

A couple of the rescues I have had were surrendered for problems with children, too boisterous, biting etc. I had no issues with either of them coming here with the above rules in place.

I think people often get a pup for their kids & expect everything to be perfect from day one. Small children running around & small puppies loose are a recipe for disaster, IMO. Not sure if this helps...as usual I have rambled quite a bit. :D

[poodlefan]

Kids should not be allowed to play with the pup unless supervised.

Parents to read up on mouthing puppies and start introducing some bite inhibition training. It will not stop of its own accord. I've met a 7 month old Lab with no bite inhibition and that dog bloody hurt when it mouthed. Research suggests that this is something that MUST be taught when a dog is a pup.

ETA: Here is a good link on the basics of teaching bite inhibition.

Edited March 13, 2009 by poodlefan

[reginald]

We got our bulldog pup 3 weeks ago and we have 5 children from ages 11 to 16 we have had no trouble in teaching him not to bite. I have read a couple of books by Ceasar Milan the dog whisperer and watch his shows all the time and find his advice really works. We bought our British bulldog as a family pet so the kids can enjoy playing with him, he is a great little pup and is learning quickly not to bite.

[Kelpie-i]

Sounds like a learned and repeatedly reinforced behaviour, which is all too common in the 'puppy and kids' scenario. Where there are young kids with young pups, jumping, mouthing and chasing behaviours will occur/develop.

Young children must be taught how to behave around dogs and if they are too young to comprehend, then best to either keep them away or keep them under adult control at all times.

Children running, screaming and waving arms around will only entice the puppy even more, therefore I tell my client's children (if over the age of say 5 or 6) to 'make like a tree" whenever the puppy jumps. If there are siblings, then I get them to compete with each other as to who can stand still the longest. Works like a dream as they really try to compete with one another.

The other thing is to teach young children how to play with the puppy. If the adult can teach or encourage the pup/dog to fetch, then this is a good, non-aggressive way the children can play with the dog.

If all else fails and the dog (when much bigger than the kids) continues to jump/mouth, the old "water bottle" dog trainer works well too.

It's a case of training the children as much as the dog. The emphasis is always on what the dog is doing wrong, we need to look at what the humans are doing wrong too.

I like what Vickie wrote as these are the same rules in our household whenever children come to visit.

[sandgrubber]

Thanks everybody for thoughtful and constructive comments. I haven't sent the text I wrote at the top of the thread, and think I will delete it and refer to person to your comments. . . and write something into my "advice to puppy buyers" sheet that summarises what you all have said. I have regularly repeated the adage that children should not be allowed to play with puppies or dogs unsupervised . . . but not having been there I haven't developed good instincts about what sort of supervision is required.

[paddles]

I would like to add something here, I was having trouble with my springer, and my youngest child (Not really mouthing as such, but dangerous behaviour) Thomas (8) would roll on the ground and allow our then 6mth old pup to get over him, I explained to Thomas why this was not a good idea, (Which he ignored being an 8yr old boy) and was at my wits end, when I spoke to the vet about my problem and she came up with a simple solution, I was disiplining the wrong party! sending tom to his room fixed the problem within a week. (Worked for ignoring mouthing problems too, not that we really had any as such)

within the week kids could yelp and ignore like a pro, instead of screaming and carrying on exciting the dog.