Failing To Comply With Known Command

[CoffeeChoc]

Just read another thread and triggered this querie. I'm curious as my dog sometimes decides she doesn't want to sit when she definately knows the command. Previously I haven't been correcting this as such as I assumed this would create negative associations with my commands. This usually occures when on a walk not through lack of focus as often when I tell her to sit she does look at me but then often starts looking at anything else that has caught her interest. I have tried bringing treats with me but she generally isn't too interested in them when walking. What I have been doing up to date is refusing to move (she is very energetic) until she looks at me again, at which point I tell her to sit and she usually complies. Just curious as to what others would do in such a situation?? Oh, and the use of a higher reward tug/toy is a moot point as she currently has no interest and/or is scared of toys and tug.

[Just Midol]

Just read another thread and triggered this querie. I'm curious as my dog sometimes decides she doesn't want to sit when she definately knows the command. Previously I haven't been correcting this as such as I assumed this would create negative associations with my commands.

Won't happen. She will learn that listening to you means she avoids the correction so she is even more motivated to obey.

This usually occures when on a walk not through lack of focus as often when I tell her to sit she does look at me but then often starts looking at anything else that has caught her interest.

The motivation isn't high enough. Assuming she does know what you're asking but choosing not to because something else is more fun.

Motivation includes the reward and the punishment she'll avoid if she complies.

I have tried bringing treats with me but she generally isn't too interested in them when walking. What I have been doing up to date is refusing to move (she is very energetic) until she looks at me again, at which point I tell her to sit and she usually complies. Just curious as to what others would do in such a situation??

Personally, I'd keep doing what you are doing and/or introduce corrections.

Oh, and the use of a higher reward tug/toy is a moot point as she currently has no interest and/or is scared of toys and tug.

Common. My dogs aren't motivated by much at all either.

I have to stress, do NOT correct unless you are 100% certain she knows what you're commanding.

[CoffeeChoc]

What sort of correction would be considered appropriate? I am reluctant to smack other than very lightly as i believe she was abused at one point in time (possible reason for fear of certain toys). I corrected her once this way (different missdemeanour) and she was very scared of me for about half an hour afterwards. Correction with lead?

Edited March 10, 2009 by Blueygirl

[Just Midol]

I don't smack my dogs at all anymore.

Hard to say what is appropriate. I use a prong collar, but there are a range of options. If I was you, I'd try and see a local trainer for just a session and find out what tool they think is the best, whether they think one is required & they'll show you what level corrections to apply - ohh, also how to apply one properly with the tool.

But like I said, I use prong collars.

What breed?

[CoffeeChoc]

Red heeler cross Jack Russel/Fox terrier? Unsure of the cross, definately something small thought. She is about 12 kg. She is currently just on a flat collar and listens fairly well with it, doesn't pull unless she forgets herself but then if I do a quick check she usually behaves again.

[Just Midol]

Just wanted to know how big she was (for no reason at all)

If I was you I don't think I'd correct yet. I'd move into new environments and do some training in new environments without doing it on the walk (Just to be 100% sure she knows what you expect). If you have done this, then I'd start punishing for disobedience but seeing a trainer will be the best idea. They're not too expensive and will help a great deal.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Just Midol

[The Spotted Devil]

If she is motivated by going for her walk (like my lad is), I would personally try a non-reward marker (NRM) first. For example, say I am taking Zig on a walk and I asked him to sit and he didn't I would say "oh well" very calmly and nonchalantly (this is my NRM and he knows it to mean "ah well - you've missed out on a reward, try again!"). I would stand still and then just ignore him, giving him the time and the opportunity to work out for himself how to get the reward (i.e. sit and be rewarded by moving forward). Does that make sense? Zig bounces back and switches his brain into gear when I use a NRM where he wouldn't with even a light correction.

[Tilly]

My boy occassionally doesn't comply to his commands immediately (particularly if there is alot going on around him) ... and he gets a very firm "now".

I never give him the command a second time but the "now" seems to remind him that I am still waiting - and my body language also changes to a more serious stance. He knows I mean business ...

[Just Midol]

If she is motivated by going for her walk (like my lad is), I would personally try a non-reward marker (NRM) first. For example, say I am taking Zig on a walk and I asked him to sit and he didn't I would say "oh well" very calmly and nonchalantly (this is my NRM and he knows it to mean "ah well - you've missed out on a reward, try again!"). I would stand still and then just ignore him, giving him the time and the opportunity to work out for himself how to get the reward (i.e. sit and be rewarded by moving forward). Does that make sense? Zig bounces back and switches his brain into gear when I use a NRM where he wouldn't with even a light correction.

Great idea.

I'd rather do this first.

[dogdude]

I think these type of problems often arise from the way dogs are socialised. When the handler is the dogs centre of attention, these problems generally don't happen.

People often give their dogs too much doggy play when young, and wonder why they don't listen when they see another dog while on a walk (which is one example of many types of problems we often create without realising.) Leaving them entire can cause similar.

If socialisation isn't focused on all the rest the big bad world has to offer, your dog will always be focused on them while walking.

My advice would be concentrate creating a stronger bond with your dog. Starting TOT would be a good start, then build on it with distractions.

[Nekhbet]

does the dog really 100% know the command? In this instance I would say no. My dogs can be excited, shaking etc and still follow their commands. Unless you have proofed the command you dont try and give a command to a dog that is not paying attention, over excited etc because the dog is not going to be receptive and in all probability isnt going to really hear you.

If she's too excited you are within her critical distance or just reaching it. Turn her around walk off "Come on!" in a high pitched voice and regain focus. Then ask her to sit. Ask her once, and even if you have to move her bottom down as you say the command 'Sit'. Wait, mark the behavior (YES! or GOOD! or click with a clicker) then move off when you are ready. She wants to engage in something exciting - so remove it. Teach her she's allowed to investigate when she is behaving and listening too you.

Prongs are not for all dogs, in fact some dogs can throw a right fit or completely shut down. What works for one may not work for another.

Have you considered a session with a trainer to pick their brain? you probably only need one Q&A session and a demo to get you on the right track for your dog

People often give their dogs too much doggy play when young, and wonder why they don't listen when they see another dog while on a walk (which is one example of many types of problems we often create without realising.) Leaving them entire can cause similar.

lack of owner control is more a problem then socialising. My dogs were socialised with everything BUT I used it as an opportunity to teach them 'ok X is good but when I say jump you say how high' at the same time. Dogs seeing something as fun or positive does not automatically equate an out of control dog.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Nekhbet

[Just Midol]

Dogs can shut down from anything, it isn't limited to a prong collar.

Not targeting this at you Nekh, I know you'd know this but just making it clear to others who might come away thinking prongs are evil.

[PAX]

I would suggest you test what your dog actually knows and what you think you have taught it before using any corrections, I would do this at home in a low distraction time.

Can you get your dog to sit when you are sitting down on the floor? Or laying down?, what about if your dog is behind you and you are in front of a mirror and give a simple verbal cue like 'sit', can your dog do it?

Until you can do this you wont truly know if your dog understands your verbal commands.

It is a great test to see what your dog knows and what you think it knows. You might be suprised at how much your dog actually offers or guesses to get it right.

Happy training.

[Vickie]

I would suggest you test what your dog actually knows and what you think you have taught it before using any corrections, I would do this at home in a low distraction time.

Can you get your dog to sit when you are sitting down on the floor? Or laying down?, what about if your dog is behind you and you are in front of a mirror and give a simple verbal cue like 'sit', can your dog do it?

Until you can do this you wont truly know if your dog understands your verbal commands.

It is a great test to see what your dog knows and what you think it knows. You might be suprised at how much your dog actually offers or guesses to get it right.

Happy training.

Great post Pax. This is what I would do too. Increase the bond by training & proofing any commands with rewards.

Dogs do not generalise very well, lots of dogs obey a command 100% at home but nowhere else if they have only ever been trained at home. Try going into your front yard or on your footpath & training sit every day for 10 mins. and then take it somewhere else etc.

[Jigsaw]

Each time you take your dog somewhere different you are back to basics. There is suddenly so much more to look at in the park - the birds, other dogs, people than at home so you have to lower your criteria and maybe help your dog remember how to sit. A NRM is great when they offer a behaviour other than the one you asked for. Remember to stay calm and use the same tone of voice when cueing your dog as you would at home. A correction can vary for some people from a NRM, a shake of the lead or a hand on the dog's bottom (to help it into a sit, not a smack) to comply with the command. If you need to redirect the dog's focus back onto you try walking backwards and then rewarding the dog with a treat when it returns its focus back to you, then try giving the command.

[Just Midol]

I really think that idea that every time you take your dog somewhere you are back to basics is highly misleading, and if anything, damaging.

My dogs have only learnt in 3-4 environments, yet they have generalised that across everything. I guess working up the distractions in my main training environment (at home) then went to 3 others under low distractions and they've generalised.

They might not generalise from one environment, but they do generalise. You shouldn't need to proof it in every new environment you enter.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Just Midol

[Jigsaw]

Perhaps instead of saying "back to basics" I should have said that when you are in the early stages of training your dog and moving into different situations and contexts you need to lower your criteria for the dog to perform and increase your rate of reinforcement. The dog moves from acquiring the behaviour to generalising under different criteria to automatic responses as it learns. It is up to the trainer to keep the information flowing to the dog so the dog understands clearly what you want in each circumstance.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Jigsaw

[Just Midol]

Yeah, that's a better way to put it. I just shorten it down to this:

I'd move into new environments and do some training in new environments without doing it on the walk (Just to be 100% sure she knows what you expect).

But then that offers no real explanation as to why it is important to do it in multiple environments under different distractions.

[Working_Setters]

I agree with PAX and Vickie. Your dog obeys sit in no/low distraction environment, but ignores you in high distraction setting. You need to go back and work in a medium distraction setting. I find successful repetition and slowly increasing the level of distraction are the keys. I do this repeatedly until sit to whistle is second nature to my dogs. When they hear the sit whistle, they only have one thought, to get their backside on the ground as quickly as possible. I don’t teach my dogs many commands (party tricks), but those I do teach, I teach very thoroughly.