Paptacular! Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 What I want to know is, is it common/acceptable for a beginner's class obedience trainer to do this? Trainer has a large dog (eg, a bully) he is using for a demonstration, owned by someone taking the class. The demo is heeling. As the dog's lead tightens, he pulls on the chain to correct the dog. Not a small tug. Rather a large, heavy handed pull. Which causes the dog to yelp (in pain or surprise, I'm not sure). This happens several more times. The dog sounds truly pained in some instances. At the end of the demonstration when the dog is asked to sit (being guided by hands), the dog slumps by the trainer's feet into a drop. Demonstration repeated once more, with similar results (yelping and slumping). Do you think this is acceptable? Or am I just soft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) It is hard to comment without seeing it myself, but I wouldn't be comfortable with a trainer using my dog with methods I don't agree with. What was the owner's opinion/reaction? The obedience school I went to had the trainers using their own dogs for demos and on occasion they would get a person from the class to do a demo with their dog. Edited March 9, 2009 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 It was quite a large class, and I was standing about 6 people away from the owner in the circle. I didn't see his reaction to well, but he didn't seem to flinch. Maybe he thought his big tough Bully could handle it, but if anyone did that to Portia I would be telling them where to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sezy Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 It sounds a bit old school to me but hard to say as was not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 No, definately not acceptable. Regardless that I don't train with check chains, the first signs of someone causing my dog pain will be dealt with swiftly......the owner should have immediately put a stop too the "demo" after the first yelp. Hope someone reported this so called trainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 If it is as you portay, then its unacceptable. Did the Dog have any idea what it was being asked? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 It was quite a large class, and I was standing about 6 people away from the owner in the circle. I didn't see his reaction to well, but he didn't seem to flinch.Maybe he thought his big tough Bully could handle it, but if anyone did that to Portia I would be telling them where to go. I tend to agree with others, pain like that has no place in a basic dog training class! Teaching heel is not difficult for an experienced handler and I never correct my dogs as a way of teaching them something - that's not fair to the dog. My dogs get a correction for failing to comply with a known command not a command they haven't learned. I wouldn't be comfortable with someone handling my dog like that and it is not something I would ever allow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 If it is as you portay, then its unacceptable. Did the Dog have any idea what it was being asked? Tony It was the second session of a beginner's class. Switching your dog on (sitting alongside the left leg) was taught last week and was meant to be homework, as was asking the dog to sit at the same position after completing an exercise. There is every chance that the dog knew what was being asked of him for the sit command (probably not the 'heel' as it was the first demonstration). The fact that the dog slumped to the ground after the trainer's hands guided him to a sit was an eye opener. The dog looked very dejected, tired, and may have been fearful of the trainer, due to the fact it was trying to get as low to the ground as possible. After seeing that, I had to leave the class early and I don't think I will be returning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Pappy, if it was the Dog's first exposure to heeling, then its totally unacceptable!!!As Huski said, one cannot correct a Dog when it is not understanding what is being asked.Going down this track is only going to cause resistance and avoidance. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I agree with Tony and Huski. If the dog does not know what is expected of him then correcting is cruel. I won't apply a punishment (+P) unless I am 100% certain the dog knows the command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 Well I'm glad I'm not a big old softie then! Well that's it for that class and trainer. There is another club here who call themselves a Positive Training Club, but it's so far away (in a rural area). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Don't get me wrong Paps, I have no problem with aversive methods and some purely positive trainers can annoy me a bit as they can have a limited view when it comes to training, and with some of the PPT I have worked with, a holier than thou approach with the methods they use. But I think that it is important to find a club you are comfortable with - although the trainer in this class may not reflect the entire club, there could be trainers there that have a more 'balanced' view when it comes to training. I have no problem with checks chains etc but it is all about balance and using them when it is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 I agree, gentle corrections on a check chain when they're warranted, I'm absolutely fine with. But to the repeated extent where it causes a dog pain and ends up looking like it wants to shrink away from the trainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozjen Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 What I want to know is, is it common/acceptable for a beginner's class obedience trainer to do this?Trainer has a large dog (eg, a bully) he is using for a demonstration, owned by someone taking the class. The demo is heeling. As the dog's lead tightens, he pulls on the chain to correct the dog. Not a small tug. Rather a large, heavy handed pull. Which causes the dog to yelp (in pain or surprise, I'm not sure). This happens several more times. The dog sounds truly pained in some instances. At the end of the demonstration when the dog is asked to sit (being guided by hands), the dog slumps by the trainer's feet into a drop. Demonstration repeated once more, with similar results (yelping and slumping). Do you think this is acceptable? Or am I just soft? Not a trainer I would be going to definaitly the wrong method in this day and age. While this method was common place some thirty odd years ago, thankfully we have come along way since then. I have been a trainer with the old choke chain and snap the lead many years ago as that was the standard method back then. Perhaps someone should put the colllar on this trainer, give him/her commands in a forein language and then give a good jerk of the lead to teach him/her to understand. I have since trained dogs using positive reinforcement and I am currently training my first clicker trained dog and have been for the last 4 years. I find clicker training so much faster, just about any age can do it and the dog enjoys the training rather than responding out of necessity. I have taught this clicker trained dog so much more than I ever imagined I could teach a dog and also experienced freeshaping with the dog and realising just how smart they are when thinking for themself. I shudder to think of the old method, even without a clicker positive reinforcement works so much better than those old methods. I have taught pups as young as 7 to 8 weeks to sit, drop and rollover using positive reinforcement in a couple of short play lessons, I'm still learning and I'm sure I will continue to learn better ways of comunicaiting and teaching my dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) Not a trainer I would be going to definaitly the wrong method in this day and age. ... While this method was common place some thirty odd years ago, thankfully we have come along way since then. I have since trained dogs using positive reinforcement ... I shudder to think of the old method, even without a clicker positive reinforcement works so much better than those old methods. I have taught pups as young as 7 to 8 weeks to sit, drop and rollover using positive reinforcement in a couple of short play lessons ... Ozjen - I've selected a few parts out of your post to quote for specific reasons. Firstly because of the use of words such as "this day and age"; "old method". These are common expressions used especially by those who vow to the "positive only" (loose term) method. The words when looked at singularly appear to be benign but used within the context they do seem to carry a negative vibe with them, as though applying a method that is "old" is somehow wrong. Sure, administering a correction for unwanted behaviour has been around for decades (wonder why) but being "old" does not render it past its use-by date. Applied well and fairly, it is a method that can achieve excellent results - in some dogs results that would or could not be achieved using positive reward based training on its own. Secondly because any trainer worth their salt will and do use positive reinforcement methods to train young pups. As is mentioned within even just this thread, it is inappropriate to correct a dog for non-compliance of a command it does not know or understand. The commands are first taught using positive reward. It is great that you are achieving success in the training of your dog over these past four years using a clicker to mark your dog's required behaviour. Free shaping is good too, although I do like a good mix of compulsion work as well as it teaches the dog to give relaxed compliance to pressure, rather than to resist it as would often otherwise be its reflex response. This carries over to be of great value in many other instances such as at the Vets. Dogs used to responding to pressure with relaxed compliance are the dogs most likely to be able to be xrayed (etc) without the necessity for sedation or GA (to give one example). There are many dogs out there, whether it be by the innocent errors people have made in the upbringing of their dogs or just by the mere nature of the individual dog who need a correction to show them there is a distinct advantage in demonstrating the behaviour preferred by us. As for the situation described by the OP? I wasn't there so it is incredibly difficult to comment. It doesn't sound great and I agree that if the dog did not understand sufficiently what was required, the correction was unwarranted and probably served to confuse the dog which in itself doesn't help with the training. But I don't think the instructor deserves criticism without the observation from someone who might know more of the dog in question and of training itself. This is not a criticism of the OP who quite rightly questioned what occurred and was seeking opinion for the sake of her and her own dog. But it is not to suggest the "method" was wrong, but perhaps that it was applied incorrectly. I don't necessarily think that what occurred merits the OP leaving the club, although for her to do so is her own choice. Perhaps question what occurred with Management or Senior Instructor and ask whether what the instructor did was appropriate/right and why. But in the end, the OP does need to have confidence in the instruction being given, so choice to move Clubs on that basis is warranted. IMO, one "method" is not better over any other methods. Preclude even one method and the ability to work with all dogs with success is diminished. Sure - stick with the method you use for the dog you use it with as that is working and by the sounds, working well for you. But that doesn't mean that other methods are not right nor appropriate for other dogs. Edited March 9, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trishalouise Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Correcting a dog so forcefully in an exercise that it is not yet fully proofed on to the point where it so obviously shuts down is unacceptable - no excuses. The owner SHOULD have stepped in - their behaviour was also unacceptable. I would be leaving the club - but not before I had made it known formally why. Trish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 I'm pretty sure the trainer running the class was the club president, or their senior trainer. No one higher up to complain to I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 It is unfair to ask people to comment when they haven't seen for themselves. I don't personally use a correction chain, however if it is going to be used I would rather see someone give a handful of meaningful corrections rather than 'gentle' pissy corrections that are probably pulling rather than correcting. Some dogs just don't like people handling them physically, hence why the dog dropped rather than sat. It is not an indication that undue force was used. A trainer tried to lead my dog by her collar on the weekend, she didn't like it and dropped on to her back. Doubt that would have looked good if videoed. You need to decide whether this clubs methods of training are for you or not. You don't need us to tell you what we think about the trainer. Threads like this make me not want to be a trainer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 (edited) EDIT: I misread the OP, read "taking the class" as teaching the class. As you were! Edited March 9, 2009 by anita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monah Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Well I'm glad I'm not a big old softie then! Well that's it for that class and trainer. There is another club here who call themselves a Positive Training Club, but it's so far away (in a rural area). hi Pappy, I've asked about clubs there and I'll be joining the PTC club. I think you are talking about the one in the city? I wont be up until around may, but I don't really like the idea of so many people at class and also my two would DIE if they were treated that way and it would send our training backwards. Can you ask Lilsmum? about obed clubs? Good luck, hope it all goes OK xxxxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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