Dry Dog Food- The Good, The Bad & The Ugly..

[Staff'n'Toller]

Is this more of a thing that goes on in the US? Or is it prevalent here as well?

I don't want to be stepping on toes, but am curious...

Well you made the statement - back it up with something verifiable!!!!

[APBT]

anyone know of a grain free kibble i can buy in sydney?

[huski]

anyone know of a grain free kibble i can buy in sydney?

Artemis has a grain free range and I think Eagle Pack Holistic might be too (but I could be wrong).

[Crisovar]

I think kick backs and profits is more to the point - sorry about that. I have no idea how extensive it is, but seems to me a conflict of interest. I know the same stuff can be true with doctors and certain company's drug lines etc.

Veterinarians and Pet Food

Is this more of a thing that goes on in the US? Or is it prevalent here as well?

I don't want to be stepping on toes, but am curious...

This has been discussed here many times, and no one who has brought it up has offered any proof to support it.

The link you supplied is from the US.

Dog food is treated the same as any other product sold at a vet clinic, there are no kick backs. Vets are free to stock whatever brands they wish and often they carry Hills for their prescription diets, and whatever other brands they feel offer a good quality and easily obtained range for client convenience

and it is good business sense to provide a range of products that cllients need.

The major Vet Supply companies stock several brands of good quality dog food, and in most clinics you will find they are the source of just about everything that a vet clinic needs and sells, they offer a great service and generally you have your order overnight. So Vets generally carry the brands that are easily obtained by them.

Discussions on diet with clients can be very time consuming and in many cases pointless, owner compliance with suggestions that are difficult or time consuming is low, it is much easier to suggest a product of convenience that the owner can buy and use, no prep no thought, good compliance.

There is no great conspiracy, the only kick backs I have seen are promo items like toys, feed bins etc.

We hardly ever see the reps for the companies let alone any kickbacks.

Vet schools barely touch on nutrition and diet, and small animal nutritionists are a bit like hens teeth in Australia.

[Ravyk]

umm i didnt post this topic to judge other pet diets..only bloody posted to inform of i what i find interesting etc..dont think ill bother about the diet topics anymore..

No you just post fact under pretence of informing, but what you really are doing is pushing your own opinion. And when someone critises something you posted you get all agro, defensive and rude. You are being really childish.

And when you do take information from other sources, include a link to the original-you are supposed to because otherwise its stealing/plagerising. If you dont have a link/reference-dont post it.

Diet is a big deal for most people and they are passionate about what they feed. You have and probably still will rub up the wrong way with many members who feed with dry food. [and from you other threads, you're are insulting and angering BARF feeders] Not everyone believes Barf is good for their dogs. Some dogs thrive on it, while other dogs thrive on dry food. I personally hate dry food but thats my choice-I wont bash other people because they feed it-I have my reasons they have theirs.

Did it ever occur to you that in a forum with 17,000 members some of this stuff has been posted before? There is a handy "search" bar. Use it. If you cant find it already posted then post it. Also its forum, things are meant to be discussed. Not everyone has the same views as you, so deal with it in a mature way.

[jamie]

anyone know of a grain free kibble i can buy in sydney?

Innova Evo is available Australia wide from Pets Paradise and is a very high quality,grain free kibble.

[huski]

anyone know of a grain free kibble i can buy in sydney?

Innova Evo is available Australia wide from Pets Paradise and is a very high quality,grain free kibble.

But you have to support PP to get it Hence why we've never tried it.

[Alyosha]

I think kick backs and profits is more to the point - sorry about that. I have no idea how extensive it is, but seems to me a conflict of interest. I know the same stuff can be true with doctors and certain company's drug lines etc.

Veterinarians and Pet Food

Is this more of a thing that goes on in the US? Or is it prevalent here as well?

I don't want to be stepping on toes, but am curious...

This has been discussed here many times, and no one who has brought it up has offered any proof to support it.

The link you supplied is from the US.

Dog food is treated the same as any other product sold at a vet clinic, there are no kick backs. Vets are free to stock whatever brands they wish and often they carry Hills for their prescription diets, and whatever other brands they feel offer a good quality and easily obtained range for client convenience

and it is good business sense to provide a range of products that cllients need.

The major Vet Supply companies stock several brands of good quality dog food, and in most clinics you will find they are the source of just about everything that a vet clinic needs and sells, they offer a great service and generally you have your order overnight. So Vets generally carry the brands that are easily obtained by them.

Discussions on diet with clients can be very time consuming and in many cases pointless, owner compliance with suggestions that are difficult or time consuming is low, it is much easier to suggest a product of convenience that the owner can buy and use, no prep no thought, good compliance.

There is no great conspiracy, the only kick backs I have seen are promo items like toys, feed bins etc.

We hardly ever see the reps for the companies let alone any kickbacks.

Vet schools barely touch on nutrition and diet, and small animal nutritionists are a bit like hens teeth in Australia.

Sorry if I upset you Crisovar, not intended.

The large pet food companies are no doubt largely multinational are they not? So it goes without saying that people will be equally concerned about what is publicised about a particular company even if comes form overseas.

My concern is the perceived conflict of interest involved. I am certainly not accusing anyone of any form of corruption.

But one Google search brings a first link to a large pet food company page with a resident expert giving feeding advice who still operates several practices (Australia). First link only, the list goes on and on... I have numerous articles on animal feeding in magazines geared at certain companies and brands of feed written by qualified veterinary surgeons. If they are on the full-time payroll of that company then more power to them - and congrats on getting a good consultative position like that!

But if similar opinions, references and or articles are solicited from professional Vet staff by pet food companies, what ethical position does that leave them if they are still in active practice? I am assuming that they are paid for their professional opinion, as they well should be.

Are staff at such practices feeling a moral obligation to recommended that particular food? And are they easily able to then be criticised based upon that perception?

I can't speak for anyone else, but my tertiary training in ethics leads me to believe that a perceived conflict of interest can be drawn here. I don't think it's a fair thing to lump on anyone who is only going to work for the day, whether they be a vet or receptionist. But if it is there it is there, and will be perceived by more than one individual. Nobody wants a professional opinion that is tainted by commercialism.

I am also well aware of the impact of owner compliance etc on recommending particular foods. And is it a factor for vet staff that at least if the customer buys from them they know they have got something decent for the dog?

What I am curious about is how others feel. I tend to be a suspicious person by nature, so maybe it's just me.

I am also concerned that if this subject has been brought up again and again as stated above, that may indicated that others share the perception.

Ideas? (preferred over attacks please... )

[Crisovar]

Not upset at all, just stating the facts in my experience, and I cannot see that you have been attacked?

I have worked with many Vets over the past 30 odd years and none of them are in the situation you mention, it is certainly not a common one. There are many qualified Vets working in research, sales etc who no longer practise. A lot of reps for pharmaceutical companies, or Veterinary supply companies are actually qualified but non practising Vets.

There are thousands of Vets in this country who all work the way I have outlined in my earlier post, so no I do not think that in Australia Vets selling pet food can be seen as a conflict of interest.

The subject comes up time and again because for some reason unknown to me or my colleagues some people are under the impression that vets receive a commission or kick backs on what they sell and that this is the reason why certain foods are recommended. This is not my experience.

Different Vets in the same practice will often recommend different diets.

Who would you suggest would be qualified to sell the many prescription diets that Vets currently sell, that are available only through Vets. Many of the animals using these diets need to be monitored. It is really not as cut and dried as some would think.

[Luke W]

Nattylou - do you perceive a potential conflict of interest with Dr. Billinghurst?

[jamie]

anyone know of a grain free kibble i can buy in sydney?

Innova Evo is available Australia wide from Pets Paradise and is a very high quality,grain free kibble.

But you have to support PP to get it Hence why we've never tried it.

I know it's not a great situation,but IMHO it's the best kibble available in Aus at the moment.

[laffi]

anyone know of a grain free kibble i can buy in sydney?

Innova Evo is available Australia wide from Pets Paradise and is a very high quality,grain free kibble.

But you have to support PP to get it Hence why we've never tried it.

I know it's not a great situation,but IMHO it's the best kibble available in Aus at the moment.

I think Artemis Maximal Dog is just as good and you can get it from some great pet stores.

[Alyosha]

Nattylou - do you perceive a potential conflict of interest with Dr. Billinghurst?

I think the perception is easy to draw in any situation where the line between commercialism and professionalism becomes hazy. Every individual situation then has it's own details.

So when it's completely up front like with Dr Billinghurst that yes, of course he's going to refer this diet, and yes he makes money from it it is a little different. A level of transparency exists which dispels the negative aspects of it. Obviously it is going to be plain that he refers and recommends this diet based on his professional opinion, but balancing the commercial aspect is that he is more that plain that he is recommending it purely not for commercial gain but for his firm convictions that it is genuinely better for the animal.

Does that make sense? It's the morning and I haven't had coffee yet!!

And no, Crisovar, I didn't think you attacked me at all. :rolleyes: That didn't refer to you in any way.

I was more worried about starting an avalanche!

I am wondering whether it effects the relationship between people and their vets ever, if they quietly wonder if the vet recommended a certain food because of their opinion or because of money.

I don't think it's fair for pet food companies to ever place vets, their staff or their customers in such a position, but if their product is genuinely great then I suppose it matters little.

Obviously it means much to these companies to have veterinary opinions on their food from an advertising point of view, and no vet should be asked to supply advice or opinion for free. I don't think pet food companies are in need of charity!

If I was working at a vet clinic, I wouldn't want people criticising me for something like that when it wasn't the case. But also I would love to be able to supply people a dog food that I knew was going to be a good thing for the health of the animal, without having to hope they were going to comply with something complicated.

And prescription diets are completely different, as they a re obviously medically related so I don't think anyone would question a vet recommending them. I hope not anyway!

It's also heartening to hear that many vets wouldn't hesitate to recommend a different food if they thought it genuinely applied in a particular case. I think that was probably at the heart of my original post (but I'm not always clear and prone to waffling!!).

Again, there appears the transparency that dispels the perceived conflict. But you do have to accept that it is a system that could easily be manipulated by people with less morals than most, and not professional in free of these unfortunately.

[leo01]

I think Artemis Maximal Dog is just as good and you can get it from some great pet stores.

Were do you buy Artemis from? I havent been able to find it in any stores, only online.

[Odin-Genie]

Were do you buy Artemis from? I havent been able to find it in any stores, only online.

Artemis Maximal is a grain free product. I order it online and it's great because it is delivered home. Lugging around 13 kg bags from pet shops wasn't fun :rolleyes:

[jamie]

anyone know of a grain free kibble i can buy in sydney?

Innova Evo is available Australia wide from Pets Paradise and is a very high quality,grain free kibble.

But you have to support PP to get it Hence why we've never tried it.

I know it's not a great situation,but IMHO it's the best kibble available in Aus at the moment.

I think Artemis Maximal Dog is just as good and you can get it from some great pet stores.

He didn't really care for Artemis,as I mainly use it for training treats it needs to be something he actually likes.He loved Orijen Adult but Canine Country don't stock it anymore.

[APBT]

im just about to finish my second and last bag of ADVANCE puppy plus chicken, my dog didnet show any instest in it at all.

im now going to purchase another brand this weekend, i want a grain free kibble and from what ive read im tossing up between innova evo orijien and artemis,

any last advice. the only thing im worried about it purchasing a bag of food and she wont eat it, i had enough trouble getting her to eat these last two bags.

and for people in sydeny. anyone shop at petbarn?

Edited March 26, 2009 by APBT

[Sagittarian]

APBT - Orijen is not available in Australia. Check wherever you shop for Evo as to whether they do accept returns on palatibility - they don't locally to us. Artemis Maximal is grain free and has a palatability guarantee, which means if your dog won't accept it in spite of a proper attempt to change diet, that you can return for a refund.

Sags

[APBT]

APBT - Orijen is not available in Australia. Check wherever you shop for Evo as to whether they do accept returns on palatibility - they don't locally to us. Artemis Maximal is grain free and has a palatability guarantee, which means if your dog won't accept it in spite of a proper attempt to change diet, that you can return for a refund.

Sags

thanks

Edited March 26, 2009 by APBT

[jamie]

im just about to finish my second and last bag of ADVANCE puppy plus chicken, my dog didnet show any instest in it at all.

im now going to purchase another brand this weekend, i want a grain free kibble and from what ive read im tossing up between innova evo orijien and artemis,

any last advice. the only thing im worried about it purchasing a bag of food and she wont eat it, i had enough trouble getting her to eat these last two bags.

and for people in sydeny. anyone shop at petbarn?

Buy a small bag of EVO to try it out first,I'd be very surprised if your dog wouldn't eat it.The place I got mine from keep a small amount in a jar so you can look at it before you purchase,maybe they'd let you take some home to try?Every dog thats I've given it to seems to really like it,my boy absolutely loves it,other than Orijen it's the only dry he really likes.Whether or not it agrees with your dog is another matter,I've heard that's it's a bit 'rich' for some dogs and can give them the runs.