Ojay Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I have two dogs, aged 3 and 3.5 roughly, both large M&M's of pound origin. Dog 1 was brought home about 3 or 4 months prior to Dog 2. They have lived relatively happily together since then. As they have gotten older there have been a few little scuffles, mostly over food, but nothing serious. In the last 5 months or so it's gotten way out of hand. Dog 2 is today nursing nasty puncture wounds, bruising and a lacerated leg after last nights fight. There was no food involved and it seemed to arise from play that got out of hand. It's getting worse because Dog 2 is now fighting back. They are fed separately to avoid conflict on that front. But the last couple of fights, always initiated by Dog 1, started when I petted Dog 2 and not Dog 1, Dog 2 went near the backdoor when I was standing there. Another cause for a fight is when they are out for a walk, if another dog comes close, Dog 1 will attack Dog 2. Any thoughts, suggestions or strategies for a manageable ever after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Ojay, best to get a qualified person to asess your situation. I would ask these Questions. How old are the dogs now? Have the fights always initiated after you have paid attention to Dog 2? When out walking,how close do's another dog have to be to set off Dog 1? What happens if you take dog 1 out by himself and he see's another dog?Do's he still react or not.{Sounds like redirected agression] has dog 1 got any health issue's? Have you explored leadership and pack structure? Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 Vet Behaviourist- you've got a few issues going on there and you need someone to come and view the interactions and go through the complete history. Happy to recommend if you PM me your State. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 They have lived relatively happily together since then. As they have gotten older there have been a few little scuffles, mostly over food, but nothing serious IMO a scuffle is a scuffle and a signal that all is not good on the western front. Removing the food does not mean tension does still not exist between the two dogs. They obviously have an issue with the structure of their pack and the difference in age plus sexual/mental maturity (which comes later in the large-giant breeds) has meant that the other dog in all probability now has the proverbial balls to start holding its own when the other bullies. A behaviorist - yes definately. The dogs are sorting themselves out at the moment and you need coping strategies PLUS to make BOTH dogs understand their place - below you. If they fight over things (especially you) then you are not the controlling factor of their lives. Also have a think about potential habits/patterns you have created for your dogs that may set up a fight - have you always encouraged dog 1 to be more dominant because he was there first? Have you inadvertantly let them get one over you through trying to remove more potential fights instead of getting to the root of WHY they want to fight? Sounds like a bit of boot camp for both dogs would not go astray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojay Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Boot camp started last night with going back to basic obedience training. We worked on sit stays, come, down, heel, give (of a ball, which he doesn't like to do). He also has to get on his bed whenever I go to walk in or out of the door. He had to stay on his bed and watch me pet Dog 2 before he got a pet. I was amazed at how excited he was by it all, poor bugger is more than likely bored out of his mind as the last few months have been really busy after a move and settling into a new job and routine. I also don't have the safe off leash locations I used to be able to let them run in. Tonight Dog 2 will be going back to basics after Dog 1 has a big run. Dog 2 can up his exercise once he is no longer lame from his injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Why a vet behaviourist? The only thing a vet behaviourist can do over a normal behaviourist is prescribe medication, from what ojay said what made you think medication would be required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) make sure BOTH dogs are on the same regime and treated equally. Also when trouble starts, even an inkling BOTH get roused at big time. Even if you have to bang two pots together and growl NO to break the tension that begins make them on an equal plane. Dont get too bogged down in obedience patters either, just make sure the dogs know you are in charge and that although they may have bones to pick with each other, ultimately they should be more worried about what YOU think, not what the other dog does. Remember this will be something you keep up as a lifestyle all their lives or you run the risk of regression - right back to puncture wounds and vet bills. Edited March 10, 2009 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Why a vet behaviourist?The only thing a vet behaviourist can do over a normal behaviourist is prescribe medication, from what ojay said what made you think medication would be required? I assume that's directed at me. I recommend Vet Behaviourists because they hold a MACVSc in Animal Behaviour. They have a code of practice to ensure that adequate follow up is in place and they are held accountable for this. I have sat in on Vet Behaviour consults and being that my professional recommendation becomes a reflection, that is who I am comfortable referring to. :rolleyes: I don't make any assumptions about whether or not medication is needed, this looks clear cut but there could be underlying anxiety issues with the aggressor- that's not for me to say however. Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Hmmm, okay then. Oops, that appeared to be a smart arse reply. I was trying to acknowledge that I read your post. Thanks :rolleyes: Edited March 10, 2009 by Just Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojay Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 I got your PM SnT, thank you, I will keep it on file to use if I can't make some progress with going back to basics. Nekhbet, you hit the nail on the head, I hadn't maintained it as a lifestyle, assuming that the basics would stick. We all need reminding and refreshers so it was my own fault to not pay enough attention. Dog 1 is very attentive at the moment, watching and waiting so he's at least switching on that something is up. Dog 2 has healed well and was belting around the yard this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 Its tempting to treat it like a coat of paint - you think because you've laid down the first coat it will be there forever, even if you add more on top! Do you remember some subjects from high school as clearly as you did then? Even with kids, what happens when the consistancy slips ... the little rotters push the point and it all goes down hill. Dogs will naturally gravitate to what gets them what they want - be it power, food, toys, bed, attention etc - in the manner that gets it for them the fastest. If that means fighting, well a few punctures can be very little to stop dogs doing it again but missing out on food, attention, or eve receiving a correction from the owner can mean a lot more and even show them that fighting gets you nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ojay Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 One of the new household rules for Dog 1 is that he has to go and lay on his bed before he is fed. Silly bugger refused to do it tonight and is hell bent on keeping Dog 2 away from the doorway because he knows I will walk through there with his food. Now I feel guilt for denying him his dinner as he hasn't earned it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Now I feel guilt for denying him his dinner as he hasn't earned it be strong this guilt is what enables the dog to do what he wants and hence now you are stressing with fights. Hey you gave him a chance, he didnt want to comply so tough titties :cool: My dogue didnt want to comply with his commands last night and hence missed out of majority of the chicken wings. He thought, well I earned 2 I'll just be lazy now. Should have seen his face when the others got theirs for being SOOOO obedience and he's still waiting for a freebie dont feel bad he wont starve to death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Perhaps getting a hold of the crate games dvd and teaching your dogs to run to their crates to get dinner? Might just diffuse the door guarding. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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